by David89 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:12 pm
lwd wrote:David89 wrote:Personally I would put the Graf Zeppelin closer to an Independence class class CVL in capability than a CVE, and if moderner German aircraft could be found to equip her then I would rank her capabilites over a CVL. For example, if Fw 190Ds or Ta 152s could be navalised for the fighter role, with Fw 190Fs serving as dive and torpedo bombers, though I'm not sure a 190F with a torpedo could take off from a carrier deck without catapault assistance and I understand the range would be limited when compared to a conventional torpedo bomber. Alternatively the whole force of 50 plus aircraft could be made up of 190Fs, which could interchangeably fit the roles of fighter, dive bomber and torpedo bomber. None of which would make the Graf Zeppelin as good as an Essex class or similar, but with better aircraft she could have been a half decent carrier.
Bunch of problems here. For one thing at least as she was being built catapult launch appears to be the only option. Furthermore she had enough steam to launch 18 planes from an earlier quote. Then it's something like one and a half hours before the pressure is recharged. So this limits a strike to 18 aircraft. A US CVE can put up a larger strike as can the CVL. Furthermore the US CV can thicken it CAP soon after a strike is launched if needed. Then there's the fact that Graf Zeppelin not going to carry 50 plus Fw or Stukda's probably less than 40 of such air craft.
Now all this is without even considering things like radar, doctrine, or operational experiance. Note that GZ has some problems against British CVs after 41 as some of them are capable of launching night time torpedo stikes guided by radar equiped planes.
While I don't think that a torpedo carrying Fw190 could get off the deck without using the catapault, a Fw190 acting in the fighter role should be able to take off under its own power, which would allow for escorting fighters to be provided for a strike or strenghening of the CAP following a strike launch. So a strike of 18 torpedo bombers plus fighter escort should be possible, which at least matches the maximum aircraft loadout of a CVE, this being 24 aircraft for a Bogue class or 28 for the Casablanca class. Since the original planned loadout for the Graf Zeppelin was 20xFi 167, 10xBf 109T and 13xJu87 for a total of 43, and since the Fw190 is considerably smaller than either the Fi 167 or Ju87, it should be possible to carry more aircraft, and 50 seems a reasonable number.
While the Germans had some pretty decent radar, I can't answer your points on doctrine and operational experience as the Germans had no previous carriers, and it would seem not many ideas for what to do with the one they were building. The Luftwaffe having operational control over the aircraft on board Graf Zeppelin doesn't seem to be a good thing either.
[quote="lwd"][quote="David89"]Personally I would put the Graf Zeppelin closer to an Independence class class CVL in capability than a CVE, and if moderner German aircraft could be found to equip her then I would rank her capabilites over a CVL. For example, if Fw 190Ds or Ta 152s could be navalised for the fighter role, with Fw 190Fs serving as dive and torpedo bombers, though I'm not sure a 190F with a torpedo could take off from a carrier deck without catapault assistance and I understand the range would be limited when compared to a conventional torpedo bomber. Alternatively the whole force of 50 plus aircraft could be made up of 190Fs, which could interchangeably fit the roles of fighter, dive bomber and torpedo bomber. None of which would make the Graf Zeppelin as good as an Essex class or similar, but with better aircraft she could have been a half decent carrier.[/quote]
Bunch of problems here. For one thing at least as she was being built catapult launch appears to be the only option. Furthermore she had enough steam to launch 18 planes from an earlier quote. Then it's something like one and a half hours before the pressure is recharged. So this limits a strike to 18 aircraft. A US CVE can put up a larger strike as can the CVL. Furthermore the US CV can thicken it CAP soon after a strike is launched if needed. Then there's the fact that Graf Zeppelin not going to carry 50 plus Fw or Stukda's probably less than 40 of such air craft.
Now all this is without even considering things like radar, doctrine, or operational experiance. Note that GZ has some problems against British CVs after 41 as some of them are capable of launching night time torpedo stikes guided by radar equiped planes.[/quote]
While I don't think that a torpedo carrying Fw190 could get off the deck without using the catapault, a Fw190 acting in the fighter role should be able to take off under its own power, which would allow for escorting fighters to be provided for a strike or strenghening of the CAP following a strike launch. So a strike of 18 torpedo bombers plus fighter escort should be possible, which at least matches the maximum aircraft loadout of a CVE, this being 24 aircraft for a Bogue class or 28 for the Casablanca class. Since the original planned loadout for the Graf Zeppelin was 20xFi 167, 10xBf 109T and 13xJu87 for a total of 43, and since the Fw190 is considerably smaller than either the Fi 167 or Ju87, it should be possible to carry more aircraft, and 50 seems a reasonable number.
While the Germans had some pretty decent radar, I can't answer your points on doctrine and operational experience as the Germans had no previous carriers, and it would seem not many ideas for what to do with the one they were building. The Luftwaffe having operational control over the aircraft on board Graf Zeppelin doesn't seem to be a good thing either.
