Naval History Forums

Steve:

A Burke class escort would not be expected to fight Kirov.

Correct. I rest my case.

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Steve:

It is a destroyer but that clasification is not entirely clarifying. When we say "destroyer" we think in a Fletcher destroyer of 2,100 tons, whilst a Burke is almost the size of WWI battleship with 9,200 tons and 293 men on board. The displacement is almost that of Graf Spee! So, a Burke is closer to a cruiser than a destroyer; now, the clasification is that of destroyer so it stays there. However the Burke is the "surface unit" of the USN with which the Kirov would have, eventually, to fight which is why I made the comparison.

Regards.

Graf Spee was 16,200 tons full load; just a bit larger than many WWII CAs. If you want to use full load displacement you are comparing a 9,200 ton ship with a ship three times it's displacement (Kirov at 28,000 tons). Hardly a fair comparison.

A Burke class escort would not be expected to fight Kirov. Most of the USN anti surface capability is in it's aircraft and submarines.

Steve:

It is a destroyer but that clasification is not entirely clarifying. When we say "destroyer" we think in a Fletcher destroyer of 2,100 tons, whilst a Burke is almost the size of WWI battleship with 9,200 tons and 293 men on board. The displacement is almost that of Graf Spee! So, a Burke is closer to a cruiser than a destroyer; now, the clasification is that of destroyer so it stays there. However the Burke is the "surface unit" of the USN with which the Kirov would have, eventually, to fight which is why I made the comparison.

Regards.

Karl,

The Burke is a destroyer.

One advantage of making scale models (specially if all of them are at the same scale, in my case 1:350) is that you can compare them, one against the other and try to use the information you got from books and this site to see the differences, the advantages or disadvantages of the ships. Having, let's say Bismarck, Hood, Prince of Wales and Repulse in the same table at the same moment helps a lot.

About a year ago I bought and built USS Arleigh Burke and usually put it with the USS Enterprise CVN 65. Of course Enterprise looks huge, but if you compare the USN contemporary destroyer against the WWI SMS Koenig then you got an idea of how ships have changed.

About a month ago I got Admiral Ushakov, a Kirov Class russian battlecruiser. I have not built it yet, lack of time. But at least I took the hull of it with the decks over it and put alongsde the Burke. Good God! The difference is substancial, the difference and the size. Alongside the Kirov the Burke looks small, too small and weak. The weapons arrays of the Kirov minimizes the Burke too much. Of course we know that a bigger ship, in theory, can absorb more damage than a smaller one, but also it seems the power projection of the russian ship. It makes obvious that the USN re commisioned the Iowas when inteligence of this ships was made known. Checking in the Proceedings magazine of 1985 and the Soviet Military Power of that same year makes clear that NATO considered this ship, and the Kutznesov CV, as serious threats.

Frankly, in a refit scenario which is taking place I don't see a Burke standing against such a Kirov vessel, no way.

Last year I made the USS Arleigh Burke and just bought me the Trumpeter 1:350 Kirov. If size means something then, by that measure, the Arleigh Burke doesn't stands a chance against that WWII sized full capital ship.

Some of the Spruance class got box launchers on the sides behind the forward 5" gun, but I don't think any of the Ticos got them.

dundonrl wrote:

Legend wrote:I recall they do carry both...

the first 5 ships of the Ticonderogas have the Mk-26 twin armed launcher and didn't carry the Tomahawk cruise missile.. it wasn't till the USS Bunker Hill, with it's VLS launchers did they start carrying the Tomahawk..

if I was on the Ticonderoga, I'd wait till the Kirov had launched all her ASCM's, shoot them down, then close within range of the SM2's and launch those and the 8 Harpoons and hope to overwhelm the Kirov's missile defenses..

I'd really wish to be onboard a Iowa, let my escorts take out the incoming ASCM's then get within 16" gun range and blow the Kirov and her escorts out of the water..

Provision was made for the Tico's to carry Tomahawks in box launcher from what I recall. Due to a shortage I think they either didn't all get them or get as many as planned at launch. I'm not sure when/if they got a full load out but I'm pretty sure they all got some a some point.

While SACRIFICING the thousands of men and billions of dollars of escort tonnage? I wouldn't mind being in an Iowa at all. Besides being in a 688, Seawolf, or a Virginia, an Iowa would be the best ship I could think of being in... with the armor... Phalanx... and SIXTEEN INCH GUNS!!!!!!!!

But that wasn't the parameters of the topic. Sorry. As for her surviving the first five minutes... that depends on how accurate the CIWIS are... and how much ammo they waste on each vampire. One idea I have depends on one fact I am uncertain about... Was Tico equipped with Asroc with her Mk26's? I don't have much experience with the launch system. If she was would it also be possible to program the thing to get in close to Kirov, dive before they could deploy their own CIWS, and home in and sink the bugger?


PS: Sure hope she ain't in this shape when she goes against the Kirov...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y_Yard.JPG

Legend wrote:I recall they do carry both...

the first 5 ships of the Ticonderogas have the Mk-26 twin armed launcher and didn't carry the Tomahawk cruise missile.. it wasn't till the USS Bunker Hill, with it's VLS launchers did they start carrying the Tomahawk..

if I was on the Ticonderoga, I'd wait till the Kirov had launched all her ASCM's, shoot them down, then close within range of the SM2's and launch those and the 8 Harpoons and hope to overwhelm the Kirov's missile defenses..

I'd really wish to be onboard a Iowa, let my escorts take out the incoming ASCM's then get within 16" gun range and blow the Kirov and her escorts out of the water..

I recall they do carry both...

andraxxus wrote:...Anti-shipping capabilities of Ticonderoga:
2x4 RGM-84D Harpoon (628 kg weight, 138 km range, 221 kg warhead, 850 km/h speed)
RIM-66 + RAMs can be used at visual range with secondary IR guidance. (62 kg warhead, mach 3.5 speed)
...

At one point Tico was suppose to carry Tomahawks. It should also be pointed out that if surface warfare was anticipated the SM-2s can be swapped out for Harpoons.

This is like comparing a battleship to a cruiser.

One thing not discussed of course, is that if Kirov is typical of other Soviet/Russian ships, many of their systems will not be in operational condition on any given day.

Neither ship is very good at asw, mainly because they won't get contact on a modern SSN.

A Tico is an AAW specialist ship. Kirov can do surface combat in ways far superior to Tico, assuming Kirov's systems work.

The USN simply has no ship comparable to Kirov and has no plans to build one.

I think the displacement does make a difference. Russian ship designers does not live in caves In terms of weight, Kirov has 3 times more air defense payload, 28 times more antiship payload. It can also carry 3 more helicopters. There is also more place for electronics, and becouse of that, it has two different 3D air/surface search radars, three different sattelite communication radars, 4 different electronic warfare suites, and 17 different firecontrol radars. And it makes sense kirov has three times the displacement of Ticonderoga. It would be more appropirate to compare Tico with a Slava. Not in anti-shipping or Land attack capability but maybe in power projection, ASW capability, air defence capability etc.

The problem about this scenario is that The latest Tico's role is medium to short range air defence and latest kirov's role is both long short range air defence, long range anti-shipping and anti-submarine. If we are to compare these ships.... here we go:
ADGM on Kirov:
12x8 96 SA-N-6 long range ADGM complex on kirov with 200 km effective range by using 48N6E2 missiles, comperable to Patriot missiles. TOP DOME and TOMB STONE radars, when combined, can each direct 24 missiles to 12 different targets. SA-N-6 complex also uses 9M96E2 missiles which use active radar and can engage unlimited number of targets within 90 Km range. for medium range complex uses 5V55 or 9M82 missiles with 40 km ranges.
16x8 128 SA-N-9 short range ADGM. 9K931M 12 km ranged missiles and 4 CROSS SWORD radars can each direct 4 missiles to 2 different targets. in missile defence mode system has 8 seconds response time.
2x2 +40 reload SA-N-4 short range ADGM 9K33M3 missiles, 15 km range, two Fire control radars (i forgot its name) can direct 4 missiles to 2 targets, missiles also have electro optical mode for heavy ECM environments.

ADGM on Ticonderoga:
122x Mk-41 VLS tubes, contaning RIM-66M-2 with 74 km range or RIM-162 with 50 km range medium range missiles. 4 SPG-62 radars can direct 8 missiles 4 different targets in total.

Anti-shipping capabilities Kirov:
20x P-700 Granit SSM (7 ton missiles, 625 km range, 750 kg warhead, ~3060 km/h speed)
SA-N-6 complexes 5V55 and 48N6E2 missiles can be used up to 40 km range with radio command, note that 48N6E2 missiles weigh 1.8 tons and have 150 kg warhead, and über 7200 km/h speed!!!

Anti-shipping capabilities of Ticonderoga:
2x4 RGM-84D Harpoon (628 kg weight, 138 km range, 221 kg warhead, 850 km/h speed)
RIM-66 + RAMs can be used at visual range with secondary IR guidance. (62 kg warhead, mach 3.5 speed)

CIWS of Kirov:
6x Kashtan-M : Each system has its own search and tracking radar, has two Gsh-6-30 30milimetre gattling guns, and 8x ready to fire SA-N-11 missiles. Missiles have 8 km effective range and guns have 5. system can engage 1 target with missiles and another with guns. Guns have total rate of fire of 12000 rounds/per minute and 24 more missiles are stored underdeck within the auto-reloading mechanism.
2x SA-N-10: system use Igla missiles with improved seekers for engaging inbound missiles. each SA-N-10 launcher has two missiles and in order to improve effectivness, both missiles are fired in a single salvo. no idea about realoads, but reloading is by hand. range: 5 km

CIWS of Ticonderoga:
2x Phalanx CIWS has a single M61 Vulcan 20milimetre gattling guns, firing deplated uranium shells, effective range is 4 km and max rate of fire 4000 rounds per minute.
1x RIM-116 SeaRAM is positioned next to the harpoon launcher. System has 11 missiles and system can theoratically engage 11 different targets if given time. effective range is 8 km.

Guns of Kirov:
1x AK-130 dual 130mm gun, rate of fire: 80 rounds per minute (yes it is correct) 23 km ballistic range.

Guns of Ticonderoga:
2x 5''/54 caliber Mark45 gun: 127 mm, rate of fire 20 rounds per minute 24 km ballistic range.

ASW capabilities of Kirov:
1x 10 RBU-1000 Anti submarine / anti torpedo rockets
2x 6 RBU-Udav Anti submarine / anti torpedo rockets
10x 533 mm torpedo tubes, including wake homing torpedoes and stand-off ASW missiles, 20 total.

ASW capabilities of Ticonderoga:
2x3 Mk-32 324 mm torpedo tubes
RUM-139 VL-Asroc from MK-41 VLS tubes.

Airwing of Kirov:
An underdeck hangar for 3 helicopters, Additional 2 helicopters can be carried externally next to the hangar doors without disrupting air operations.

Airwing of Ticonderoga:
Hangar for 2 helicopters.

Armour of Kirov: Kelvar type,
50-70 mm SA-N-6 complex
50-80 mm Granit complex
75-100 mm reactor compartment.

Armour of Ticonderoga: Kelvar type
unknown amount around Mk-41 clusters.

General characteristics of Kirov:
max speed: 32 knots
range: unlimited using nuclear reactors, 1500km @ 10 knots using emergency boilers

General characteristics of Ticonderoga
max speed: 32 knots
range: 11000 km @ 20 knots, 6000 km @ 30 knots