Naval History Forums

by RF » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:12 am

Using KGV, DOY and Renown wouldn't be Churchills' only optons, they would be supported by cruisers and other small ships. Expect a greater focus on raiding German supply logistics in northern Norway, use of commandoes and Royal Marines. Also bear in mind that the Arctic convoys at that time (and indeed throughout WW2) were more political than economic or military and were certainly not essential to Britain staying in the war. Deterring Japan would be more vital to British interests and Churchill would realise that Hood would be better off facing some of the lesser Japanese battlecruisers than a Bismarck.

Hood could have been sent to the Far East, even if it mean't suspending the Arctic convoys (which they frequently were anyway).

by **paulcadogan** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:30 pm

RF wrote:With respect to the Atlantic threat, even if Bismarck was still around by the autumn of 1941 the system of German supply ships in the Atlantic had largely been obliterated so a sustained KM surface ship campaign would not be possible.

But the focus shifted to the Arctic. In the PQ-12 operation, would the British have been comfortable hunting Tirpitz AND Bismarck with KGV, DoY and Renown only? To me, the only way Hood (and PoW) gets sent to Singapore is if Bismarck did not survive Rheinubung or if Churchill was willing to so compromise Home Fleet capabilities.

by RF » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:29 am

paulcadogan wrote:
RNfanDan wrote:1. Hood gets a proper refit.2. Hood gets sent to the Far East.3. Hood gets sunk.Same historical funnel, different order of flow.

If a refitted Hood survives the DS and Bismarck is stopped or turned back, Hood would be retained with the Home Fleet, along with KGV & DoY to guard against further sorties by Bismarck (if she survives Rheinubung) and/or Tirpitz. REPULSE would still get sent to the Far East. Sorry Dan....the old girl still goes down..

Given the international reputation of Hood pre-WW2 I think in this scenario that Churchill would have made a specific point of sending Hood to the Far East as in his mind it would offer the best deterrent to the Japanese entering the war. The Home Fleet would not have been any weaker than it was in reality and a force of Hood, POW and Repulse plus Indomitable (if it hadn't run aground) wpould be far more substantial. A different commander would have helped as well.

With respect to the Atlantic threat, even if Bismarck was still around by the autumn of 1941 the system of German supply ships in the Atlantic had largely been obliterated so a sustained KM surface ship campaign would not be possible.

by **paulcadogan** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:31 am

Sorry Dan, I thought you meant Hood would go with PoW instead of Repulse. And I don't think we're really off topic as this thread can deal with ANY consequence of Hood being rebuilt although I'm sure the original intent was for the D/S.

There is something in what you say given Hood's interwar role as "frightener". But in the autumn of 1941 the RN's capital ship strength was at a pretty low ebb. Peter C. Smith in his Renown book outlines the situation - Barham sunk, QE and Valiant immobilized at Alexandria, Warspite, Rodney and Resolution refitting in the US, Nelson damaged in the Med.

Repulse had been sent to the Far East to be joined laterby PoW, but it had much earlier (September) been decided that Renown should replace her in January 1942, but this was rescinded in October and Renown went to the Home Fleet instead.

If a modernized Hood was avalaible, it's still a toss-up where she would have been sent. Thinking "Churchillian" I would surmise he would still want one of Britain's most modern battleships to act as frightener for the Japanese - especially since at that time all their big ships were modernized older ships. PoW went to Singapore because Duke of York had joined the fleet (though in working up mode) and together with KGV and Renown, gave the Home Fleet a force that could confidently face off with and overwhelm Tirpitz, (and they came close to doing so in March 1942).

But as I said, if BOTH Bismarck & Tirpitz were available to the Germans, the Admiralty could not afford to spare any of its best ships for a theatre where war was still just a threat. Substitute a modernized Hood for Renown and you have KGV, PoW, DoY and Hood to contain the big twins.

We may actually have had a situation where the Admiralty might have got its way and just assembled an Indian Ocean fleet instead, based on Ceylon with R-class battleships, Repulse and maybe Renown. The Singapore debacle might never have happened! Hmmmm! There might have been quite a Churchill-Admiralty battle!

by **RNfanDan** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:39 am

dunmunro wrote:I don't think that it is a given that if a rebuilt Hood or Renown would be sunk in place of Repulse. Either ship would have much more AA power and far superior UW protection and subdivision.

I never implied that Repulse would not be sunk; reconstructed or not, Hood goes to the Far East with her and Prince of Wales (still a more modern ship, any way you add it up) likely stays in the west.

Repulse is old, but no RN big-gunned ship is faster except her sister, Renown. Repulse was sent to Singapore not because of her marvellous AA capability (she was among the poorest-armed of RN capital ships in that regard), but because of her high speed and 15-inch guns. A discussion of the Far East question pivots, with a modernised Hood, on the distinct possibility that two battlecruisers go. Repulse is almost certainly in the mix, no matter what other capital ships are available. I doubt that any of the KGVs are spared from Bismarck and/or Tirpitz watch.

Think Churchillian for a moment....he wanted a "visual impact" force to be sent to Singapore, one with enough teeth to make Japan think twice about any designs on Malaya. What better showing could possibly have been made than with what was, arguably, the world's most famous capital ship, fairly fresh from a reconstruction and with plenty of speed and firepower, in consort with another fast capital ship (probably Repulse) and a carrier?

Prince of Wales, I think, would not be the choice.

It's purely what-if of course, but I think Hood still gets the worst of endings for her 20-year-old hull at the hands of the indifferent Japanese, who were clearly unafraid of a small flotilla of British warships in that theater of operations. Sorry if this is taking the thread off course...

Interesting subject!

by **paulcadogan** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:52 am

Also, if Bismarck is damaged, but escapes back to Norway, then Germany, having damaged both (rebuilt) Hood and PoW, once all are repaired and Tirpitz is ready, the British are now faced with the threat of the Big Twins. They are going to need to maintain 2 to 1 superiority in the Home Fleet to counter them. This would mean KGV, PoW, DoY and Hood - no other ships had the combined speed and firepower for the job.

How would they have dealt with the Far East? Would Churchill have been able to convince the Admiralty to pull a KGV from the Home Fleet? Plus with the "Little" Twins still at Brest, Renown would have been kept at least in the western Med "on call". Force Z may have ended up being Nelson, Rodney and Repulse!

by **dunmunro** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:36 pm

I don't think that it is a given that if a rebuilt Hood or Renown would be sunk in place of Repulse. Either ship would have much more AA power and far superior UW protection and subdivision.

by **paulcadogan** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:52 pm

RNfanDan wrote:1. Hood gets a proper refit.2. Hood gets sent to the Far East.3. Hood gets sunk.Same historical funnel, different order of flow.

If a refitted Hood survives the DS and Bismarck is stopped or turned back, Hood would be retained with the Home Fleet, along with KGV & DoY to guard against further sorties by Bismarck (if she survives Rheinubung) and/or Tirpitz. REPULSE would still get sent to the Far East. Sorry Dan....the old girl still goes down..

by **RNfanDan** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:48 pm

1. Hood gets a proper refit.

2. Hood gets sent to the Far East.

3. Hood gets sunk.

Same historical funnel, different order of flow.

by RF » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:36 am

paul.mercer wrote:I think if PE had got hit by some 15" shells she would be severely hurt not just injured, if not out of the fight altogether, I also think that Bismarck may well have been in trouble. Her main chance would be to damage Hood in such a way that she had to slow down and them use her superior speed to get away, leaving PE to her fate.

In which case Hollands' intention that Prinz Eugen would be destroyed by Norfolk and Suffolk would come into play. Failing that Holland had six destroyers which could torpedo a limping Prinz Eugen....

by RF » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:32 am

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
This subject brings to light another question (another what if!).
If Renown had all this refit as alpha3 suggests, what if she had been at Denmark Strait instead of Hood and assuming Admiral Holland in charge?
Renown had a very good record and an excellent crew as was proven when she took on the twins, now, assuming Holland adopts the same tactics and approaches Bismarck with her two front turrets able to fire (as did Hood) how would her modernised fire control have coped, do you think that she might have got in some early hits that might have changed the course of history, particularly as it seems that Hood's initial salvos were way off target?

The key thing here was that Holland fired first - Lutjens delayed opening fire. Therefore Renown has a chance to land damaging hits on Bismarck before the Bismarck finds her range. If those hits damage Bismarck's fire control then Renown has more time to cause further damage.

Also bear in mind that if Holland has Renown/POW why is there the compulsion to have Renown as flagship? Would Holland have had the option of transferring his flag to POW and thus put POW as lead ship and draw German fire from Renown?

by **paulcadogan** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:34 am

paul.mercer wrote:If Renown had all this refit as alpha3 suggests, what if she had been at Denmark Strait instead of Hood and assuming Admiral Holland in charge?Renown had a very good record and an excellent crew as was proven when she took on the twins, now, assuming Holland adopts the same tactics and approaches Bismarck with her two front turrets able to fire (as did Hood) how would her modernised fire control have coped, do you think that she might have got in some early hits that might have changed the course of history, particularly as it seems that Hood's initial salvos were way off target?

Paul,

I love Renown dearly but....

She was TERRIBLY vulnerable at all levels to Bismarck's shells, vertically, horizontally, turrets and barbettes - though I think the British considered her improved deck protection to be protective inside 24,000 yards but even that is questionable. This was why she was forbidden to engage Bismarck on the 26th when Adm. Somerville dutifully asked permission, unless Bismarck was already heavily engaged by KGV and/or Rodney. If Renown had been at Scapa instead of Hood, I believe Tovey would have been forced to put to sea in the KGV with Renown, leaving PoW and Repulse to follow as back up. If Hood's post-reconstruction protection would still have had vulnerabilities, Renown's was definitely a no-go.

Offensively, she had some decent firepower and modern FC. Off Norway in terrible conditions, without radar, she managed one very quick 15-inch and two 4.5-inch hits on Gneisenau at the outset, but did not connect again during the pursuit phase. At Spartivento, she straddled the Italian cruiser Bolzano at about 30,000 yards, but scored no hits. Maybe she might have connected in the DS, but if Bismarck chose to take her under fire, heaven help her!

by **paul.mercer** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:29 pm

Gentlemen,
This subject brings to light another question (another what if!).
If Renown had all this refit as alpha3 suggests, what if she had been at Denmark Strait instead of Hood and assuming Admiral Holland in charge?
Renown had a very good record and an excellent crew as was proven when she took on the twins, now, assuming Holland adopts the same tactics and approaches Bismarck with her two front turrets able to fire (as did Hood) how would her modernised fire control have coped, do you think that she might have got in some early hits that might have changed the course of history, particularly as it seems that Hood's initial salvos were way off target?

by **paul.mercer** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:13 pm

alpha3 wrote:Scenario is this - as dark as the clouds of war may have appeared in the days leading to WWII, instead of pulling HMS Renown in for the exhaustive refit she got in 1936, the Brits take a different route and drydock HMS Hood instead.

They expend the same amount of material, effort and energy on Hood, instead of Renown. This isn't intended to re-hash the many valid reasons the Brits couldn't, or were loathe to have Hood unavailable at the time. The point of this is - that they DO roll the dice.
Instead of keeping her at sea, the Admiralty decides to address Hood's shortcomings. To properly update Hood extensively, instead of Renown, during that same time frame. Maybe Renown still gets a bit of minor spiffing up, but Hood is the one that goes under the knife for the kind of updating everyone generally agrees was sorely needed. Different armor, updated targeting and fire control, new superstructure/compartments to better handle punishment from naval gunfire of the era.

In the 1936 refit, Renown was changed a lot. She got the updated fire control, a mostly new superstructure, funnels, guns, masts, some added armor. I'm not saying this would have guaranteed a different outcome for Hood necessarily, but it certainly begs the question. I'm betting she doesn't sink at the Denmark Strait. Instead of blowing to bits in the first few minutes, I think Admiral Holland gets the turn to port accomplished that he had begun, brings Hood's rear turrets to bear, and lets fly with some 15'' salvos. If Prinz Eugen gets hit by one or two of these big shells, does Lutjens move to break off right away? An undamaged or slightly damaged Bismarck can still keep the wolves away from an injured Prinz. Besides Hood, Lutjens knows he still has Prince of Wales to contend with. Quirky turret problems or not, she's still not toothless. A damaged Hood may be retreating behind the stouter POW to lick her wounds, but she's still angrily shooting at the German ships.

I think Hood needs help, though; Holland sends Hood away, with an escort perhaps, but out of the fight. Transfers his flag to POW, and shadows the Germans until Tovey can get close or the Germans make good their escape, more likely.

Gentlemen,
I think if PE had got hit by some 15" shells she would be severely hurt not just injured, if not out of the fight altogether, I also think that Bismarck may well have been in trouble. Her main chance would be to damage Hood in such a way that she had to slow down and them use her superior speed to get away, leaving PE to her fate. Even with a damaged Hood and a PoW with partly defective guns there are still two large RN cruisers not far away and I think Lutjens would have no alternative but to make a run for it.

by **RobertsonN** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:28 pm

Agreed. Neither Offord nor Okun IIRC factored in the quality factor for the Hood's main armor relative to current (1940 era) armor. Offord was asked if Hood's armor might have deteriorated due to age. He replied this was very unlikely because the armor was bolted to the hull and so was not subject to the stresses of structurally worked material.
The above consideration, that Hood's 12 in vertical protection was now more vulnerable, because of the increase in vertical penetration of a German 15 in shell of something like 33% compared to the First War, is all the more reason to make the scarp 4 in/5 in NC. Replacing the belt armor was very likely ruled out on armor capacity and cost grounds: all of the rebuilt QEs and Renown still retained their WW1 era belts.

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