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by Dave Saxton
Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:50 am
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

Hoyer's 1943 lecture described how the belt and the scarp work together to prevent penetration of the vitals. Hoyer reported that if the scarp is heavy enough and set and an unfavorable geometry to the shell, it will prevent penetration at any battle range. If the scarp is heavy enough, the necessar...
by Dave Saxton
Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:17 am
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

That is sort of calculation I name „creative counting” Call whatever you want, but you are not arguing with me. You are arguing with scientists and engineers from Krupp and the Kriegsmarine, who understood this far better than any of us. Moreover, their armour protection ideas have since been corro...
by Dave Saxton
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:12 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

Slight? Armour the same thickness had 100 fs advatage on perforation limit, and was ~50 mm thicker,... There were no 5" plates to recover from Tirpitz. The closest to 5" from Tirpitz available at that time would have been from the 120mm scarps. There's the claimed difference: 120mm vs 127...
by Dave Saxton
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:45 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

I don't care about PSI and other parameters. I care about "take plate, fire shell, see what happen" There were not many such tests, but results from those few done are known And I listed such a test where the German armour performed spectacularly. Krupp's findings were not theoretical. Th...
by Dave Saxton
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:22 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

Armour/not armour is not so simple. American STS used for deck protection sometimes, but was „construction steel” were tested with Tirpitz plates. Were slight better than German Britiss Ducol steel were slight inferior. Say was 90% that of Tirpitz. So instead of 32 You have 29 mm. Dismiss? British ...
by Dave Saxton
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:10 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

I have always liked the Vanguard. The old 15" twins were good weapons and the Vanguard included many improvements based on war experience with the KGVs. Vanguard was also the first British warship built using extensive electric arc welding.
by Dave Saxton
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:00 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

Could You give data from live tests? I have boxes and boxes of documents. Unfortunately, because of my present circumstances they are in storage and they are not handy. Nonetheless, if I recall correctly the British study that found that no British battleship gun could defeat more than about 5-inch...
by Dave Saxton
Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:50 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Vanguard and Bismarck
Replies: 78
Views: 3514

Re: Vanguard and Bismarck

I have problems in understanding british armour efficiency diagrams especially the vertical protection. obviously they greatly understate the armour penetration performance of all guns versus vertical armour.... The AoN armour schemes adopted by most are only viable if the penetration power of guns...
by Dave Saxton
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:41 am
Forum: Off Topic
Topic: Political correctness gone mad?
Replies: 128
Views: 1038

Re: Political correctness gone mad?

It is humorous to see the high clergy of the orthodox AGW religion upset and whining that they do not control the dissemination of information, or the narrative, on the subject. It is analogous to the religious high clergy defending religious orthodoxy at the time of the Reformation and the Enlighte...
by Dave Saxton
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:20 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Prince Eugane v AGS
Replies: 38
Views: 607

Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

The undoing of the lone warship raider concept was the rise of naval air power during the war. This occurred post 1940. However, in the 1930's naval air power (as well as submarines) remained unproven.
by Dave Saxton
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:03 pm
Forum: Bismarck General Discussion
Topic: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?
Replies: 327
Views: 3421

Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

To all, It is important when evaluating evidence to try to remain as dispassionate about it as possible. Open minded debate from different perspectives is healthy and it avoids problems of confirmation bias. BTW, nobody here has offended me or need apologize to me. If I have offended anybody, I cert...
by Dave Saxton
Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:32 am
Forum: Bismarck General Discussion
Topic: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?
Replies: 327
Views: 3421

Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

For the record, my comments about errors and perhaps occasional disinformation in historical evidence was just about being aware of the possibility and the need to take such into consideration. I meant it to be in a general context, and not specifically about this issue. I don't have an opinion abou...
by Dave Saxton
Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:33 pm
Forum: Bismarck General Discussion
Topic: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?
Replies: 327
Views: 3421

Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

For Dave: Top Secret reports you expect to fall into the hands of the enemy are not top secret. Reporting misinformation to your superiors without them knowing that it is incorrect, would be a recipe for disaster. How about starting a new thread on it? Kick off with the water supply problem on Midw...
by Dave Saxton
Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:20 pm
Forum: Bismarck General Discussion
Topic: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?
Replies: 327
Views: 3421

Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

They wrote in the action reports that the mines were magnetic or acoustic when they knew they were not. Call it what you like. This is extracted from page 1 and 10 of the War Diary of Commander, U.S. Ports and Bases, France . 9 AUG 1944 SECRET From:; Commander, U.S. Ports and Bases, France. To : Co...
by Dave Saxton
Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:04 am
Forum: Bismarck General Discussion
Topic: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?
Replies: 327
Views: 3421

Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

They wrote in the action reports that the mines were magnetic or acoustic when they knew they were not. Call it what you like.

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