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by Dave Saxton
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:41 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: Battleship for Freedonia
Replies: 26
Views: 4362

Re: Battleship for Freedonia

I think it unwise to design a shell, or the entire battleship, around a possible but unlikely event. Particularly when there is a trade off of performance during far more likely events. It is better to bias the trade offs toward the likely events. Consistent underwater hits are a possibility but rat...
by Dave Saxton
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:52 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

It could very well be that 1 shell impacted either on B turret or B turret barbette; capped or decapped (if it had hit the deck). The other shell could have hit the tower or even the bridge and detonated on impact without penetrating. The observations support the claim of a double hit, because at l...
by Dave Saxton
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:42 am
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

I don't think Campbell wrote a book (if he has I can't find it and it would be no doubt an excellent read), I got his account from the Baron's book where it was said:
There is a Campbell that wrote books on battleship guns and other naval weapons. I don't know if it is the same Campbell?
by Dave Saxton
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:30 am
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

So given the ranges and the angles involved, short of the shells hitting the prow of the ship and penetrating inwards, deck hits could in some probability simply glance off due to the extreme angle. This gives rise to another interesting question - why didn't it for Bismarck when she was struck at ...
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:14 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

dunmunro wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:19 pm

I think your numbers might be for weldable D1 steel.
No, but I have the numbers for DW also.
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:52 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

D steel is similar to STS. D steel is 80,000 psi tensile at 17% elongation. STS is 120,000 psi tensile at 25% elongation. STS will consume a lot more energy. I.5-inch D S may initiate fuse action but the enemy APC could travel up to 20 meters before bursting at these ranges. According to Okun D ste...
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:49 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

My source could well be incorrect. It would not be the first time. I did find an ADM document drawing that shows the KGV belt being about 3.5 meters below and about 3.7 meters above at the deepest waterline. Perhaps the 2.54 meter figure was at light load?

But Rodney's belt depth is the issue.
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:55 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

dunmunro wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:33 am


D steel is similar to STS.
D steel is 80,000 psi tensile at 17% elongation.
STS is 120,000 psi tensile at 25% elongation.

STS will consume a lot more energy.

I.5-inch D S may initiate fuse action but the enemy APC could travel up to 20 meters before bursting at these ranges.
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:45 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

dunmunro wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:42 am


KGV's belt was 23.5ft high.
My sources indicate 2.54 meters below the waterline and 4.6 meters above the waterline = 23.5 feet. The KGV belt upper edge meets the MAD one level below the weather deck.
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:05 am
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

....Interesting. Most accounts I've read saw that the blast from her own guns knocked out her (SD's) radar and severed wires which caused electricity to short out leaving her blind (think the book was Jane's warships of the 20th century). The rest, curious. So now that uncommon but still rare - do ...
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:25 am
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

The hull side is 1.5in D steel and at high obliquity will probably decap the shell and/or yaw it At least .2 calibers of armour grade steel is usually required in most applications of vertical armour. Littorio's de-capping plate was 70mm of armour grade steel. True the 1.5-inch upper deck of South ...
by Dave Saxton
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:16 am
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

Rodney was much more vulnerable to shells passing below the belt than either Bismarck or KGV. The belt is both shallow and sloped. There was a probably of Rodney taking such a hit in this scenario. Rodney's belt had a similar UW height as Bismarck but appreciably less than on KGV. It might be possi...
by Dave Saxton
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:47 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

Rodney was much more vulnerable to shells passing below the belt than either Bismarck or KGV. The belt is both shallow and sloped. There was a probably of Rodney taking such a hit in this scenario.
by Dave Saxton
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:23 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

In his Book the Baron said he received an order to take over fire control but that Albrecht was still directing the secondary armament - how was he able to do that if the FC position was hit? I dug out my von Muellenheim book which is the revised 1990 edition. I need to make a few corrections to so...
by Dave Saxton
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:04 pm
Forum: Hypothetical Naval Scenarios
Topic: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?
Replies: 85
Views: 2969

Re: What if Bismarck hit Rodney early on?

The critical hits which determined the early course of the battle were the damage to the fire control positions. For example, the aft battery remained in action for a long time after the central fire control was disabled, but was ineffective, being forced to rely on local control. If Rodney had not ...