Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

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alecsandros
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:10 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote: At first look which one of the 2 warship will you describe being the " Green one " ... suffering for lack of reliability ?
... Both ships were green. There were only 1.5 months difference in comissioning time between KGV (Dec 1940) and PoW (Jan 1941).

90 minutes of firing would make any battleship lose alot output. All documented cases that I read have serious loss of output due to crew fatigue after 20-30 minutes of firing.

We need to separate the mechanical failures to the error in drill failures..

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:15 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

Marc, try the book : PURSUIT by Sir Ludovic Kennedy for example.

But I have perfectly realized from where he took those 2 statements, written on someone Official reports, starting on June 1941.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:19 am

alecsandros wrote:
Antonio Bonomi wrote: At first look which one of the 2 warship will you describe being the " Green one " ... suffering for lack of reliability ?
... Both ships were green. There were only 1.5 months difference in comissioning time between KGV (Dec 1940) and PoW (Jan 1941).
KGV was commissioned for trials on 1 Oct 1940. She carried out full power trials on 10 Dec 1940 and joined the fleet on 11 Dec 1940 for working up exercises. This puts KGV about 6 months ahead of PoW which carried out her full power trials on 8 May 1941.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:22 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

Duncan, having the data of KGV, are you willing to prepare a similar table of performances like you did for the PoW.

This way we can compare " apples to apples " the data of both warships.

@ all,

Do you think is better to open a dedicated thread about this comparison ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:23 am

Hi All,
Dear Antonio I think having a seperate thread on the KG V class turrets is a good idea, a dedicated thread would seem appropriate. Could you tell me if the Gunnery aspects information regarding the PoW Y turret problems is correct or have we some other information that sheds light on differing issues?
Thanks in advance,
Cag.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:25 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

if anybody likes to have the KGV data about May 27th, 1941, it is enough to obtain the document ADM 234-509 from page 140 until page 154 and all the KGV main guns data are in there.

I suppose this is what Marc ( Herr Nilsson ) has given to Duncan ( Dunmunro ), ... in case just let me know about it.

Anyhow, I do not know if it is good to continue discussing here in about this subject, ... being the thread subject different ... or if it is better to open a dedicated thread about those KGV class 14 inch quadruple turrets/guns.

Just let me know what you think is better, ... now the name of the game is to re-construct on Duncan ( Dunmunro ) " style " the exact events of KGV firing her guns on May 27th, 1941, ... just like he did on a very accurate way for the PoW performances on May 24th, 1941 ... referencing the above table he provided.

So we need to analyze the loss of output from 549 guns ( need confirmation ) ordered to fire on KGV ... down to the 339 shells really fired at Bismarck on May 27th, 1941.

Were
PoW : 74 ordered vs 55 fired ( 74 % )
and
KGV : 549 ( we need to confirm this number ) ordered vs 339 fired ( 62 % ).

At first look which one of the 2 warship will you describe being the " Green one " ... suffering for lack of reliability ?

A good analysis will provide us a better understanding ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
I have the needed pages and will try to put something together tomorrow in a similar format as I did for PoW. We might continue to discuss ship issues here but 14in specific issues in a new thread.

CAG, I think you have the correct info regarding PoW Y turret.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:26 am

dunmunro wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
Antonio Bonomi wrote: At first look which one of the 2 warship will you describe being the " Green one " ... suffering for lack of reliability ?
... Both ships were green. There were only 1.5 months difference in comissioning time between KGV (Dec 1940) and PoW (Jan 1941).
KGV was commissioned for trials on 1 Oct 1940. She carried out full power trials on 10 Dec 1940 and joined the fleet on 11 Dec 1940 for working up exercises. This puts KGV about 6 months ahead of PoW which carried out her full power trials on 8 May 1941.
... Good point.
Still comissioning was only 5 weeks apart.

A better indicator of experience (in the matter analysed here) would be heavy gun exercises (between KGV and PoW). Any info on that ?

EDIT:

"December

2nd - At 1445 hours KING GEORGE V escorted by destroyers SOMALI (D6), MASHONA, BEAGLE and BULLDOG departed Rosyth for Scapa Flow to carry out 'First of Class' and builders acceptance trials, to test her aircraft warning radar Type 279 and fire control radar Type 284 for main armament, and to commence working up exercises.

4th - At 1500 hours KING GEORGE V with destroyers ESCAPADE, BRILLIANT, BEAGLE and BULLDOG arrived at Scapa Flow after gun trials west of the Orkneys. The gun firing trails exposed various defects with operation of the loading mechanisms.

5th to 9th - Carried out steaming and gunnery trials off the west Orkney's.

10th - Carried out full power trial in the Minches.

11th - KING GEORGE V officially joined the Home Fleet.

At Scapa where working up continued along with trials and remedial work on her main armament.


(Nominated for special duty to take Lord Halifax, British Ambassador Designate to take up his appointment in USA)

1 9 4 1



January



At Scapa where working up continued along with trials and remedial work on her main armament.



8th - The CinC Home Fleet sent the results of KING GEORGE V's first main armament shoot to the Admiralty.

"
Last edited by alecsandros on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:26 am

Dunmunro wrote: "......If we use my previous estimate of ~62% (549 possible and 339 actual)........."
Hi Duncan,
I see a confirmation of the 339 shells fired by KGV in the extract posted by Antonio (post from January 25 at 7:43 am), however I can't find any reference to the total shots ordered to fire (you mentioned they were 549).

Looking at the GAR fragment, it looks like at least 49 full salvos were ordered for turret Y, perhaps more (Y joined action later than A and B), so what was the total number of full salvos ordered ? Why 549 shots, a strange odd number for a 10 guns ship....... :?:

Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:35 am

alecsandros wrote:
... Good point.
Still comissioning was only 5 weeks apart.

A better indicator of experience (in the matter analysed here) would be heavy gun exercises (between KGV and PoW). Any info on that ?

EDIT:

"December

2nd - At 1445 hours KING GEORGE V escorted by destroyers SOMALI (D6), MASHONA, BEAGLE and BULLDOG departed Rosyth for Scapa Flow to carry out 'First of Class' and builders acceptance trials, to test her aircraft warning radar Type 279 and fire control radar Type 284 for main armament, and to commence working up exercises.

4th - At 1500 hours KING GEORGE V with destroyers ESCAPADE, BRILLIANT, BEAGLE and BULLDOG arrived at Scapa Flow after gun trials west of the Orkneys. The gun firing trails exposed various defects with operation of the loading mechanisms.

5th to 9th - Carried out steaming and gunnery trials off the west Orkney's.

10th - Carried out full power trial in the Minches.

11th - KING GEORGE V officially joined the Home Fleet.

At Scapa where working up continued along with trials and remedial work on her main armament.


(Nominated for special duty to take Lord Halifax, British Ambassador Designate to take up his appointment in USA)
"

PoW didn't start 14in gunnery trials until April 1941, or about 5 months after KGV.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Cag » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:37 am

Hi All,
Thanks dunmonroe, I just felt a little silly having quoted something and not knowing if there was another source of information that I'd totally missed! (I think it must be old age creeping in!) Antonio I think there is a thread in Naval Weapons section on KG V class turret problems, is it better to re-open that? I do tend to agree with Alecsandros that all these ships were to some extent green, each in their own way, and to varying degrees.
Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:39 am

Hello everybody,

@ all,

many thanks for your usual support and inputs.

@ Dunmunro,

I knew I can always count on your help my friend.

@ Cag,

YES, making a link to that Forum can provide us a new set of info's for somebody else based on their analysis.

So we close this KGV and PoW GAR ( Gunnery Aspect Report ) analysis during Op. Rheinubung here in and I will open now a dedicated appropriate thread about it where we can migrate this very interesting discussion.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:41 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Dunmunro wrote: "......If we use my previous estimate of ~62% (549 possible and 339 actual)........."
Hi Duncan,
I see a confirmation of the 339 shells fired by KGV in the extract posted by Antonio, however I can't find any reference to the total shots ordered to fire (you mentioned 549).

Looking at the GAR fragment, it looks like at least 49 full salvos were ordered for turret Y (that joined action later than A and B), so what was the total number of full salvos ordered ? Why 549, a strange odd number for a 10 guns ship....... :?:

Bye, Alberto
That was my rough estimate based upon Rodney's 77% output where 385 = 77% and 500 = 100%.

If 339 = 62% then 549 = 100%.

I should have better numbers tomorrow.

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:46 am

Hello everybody,

@ all,

I have opened a dedicated thread about KGV and PoW Gunnery Aspect Report during Op. Rheinubung here in :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6834

Please join me in there to continue all our analysis about those data

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:50 am

dunmunro wrote:
PoW didn't start 14in gunnery trials until April 1941, or about 5 months after KGV.
... According to Cag's kind repsentation of her March 1941 log, it seems she had gun trials in March also.
So about 4 months after KGV.

KGV's gun problems were noted in Dec 1940 and Jan 1941...

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Re: Tirpitz sails on part of Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:14 pm

Hi All,

Back with the German vessels it has been said:
... Bismarck fired main armament in mid-October , March and April. Prince of Wales fired in March, April and May 1941. Bismarck fired full charge in March and April 1941 (allthough the log says sub-caliber again).
The Baron, page 59 in my edition says of the period in second half November 1940, "Full calibre firing! Unforgettable was the day the Bismarck's heavy guns fired their first salvo. How far, how violently would the recoil cause the ship to heel over................a few loose objects came adrift, a few light bulbs shattered.......... Of course the concussion had already been felt throughout the ship."

Siegfried Breyer and Miraslaw Skwiot's German capital ships says "From the beginning of October the Bismarck conducted an intensive programme of sea trials and and combat training off Gotenhafen". and further "During the main armament and AA gunnery trials the superstructure, air conditioning system and the hangar door were damaged so severely that it could not be made good in Gotenhafen. In addition the fitting-out, still incomplete, had to be finished." Describing this damage caused by blast suggests there was extensive full calibre firing in November 1940 using the two main rangefinders installed at this stage.

Bismarck had months of training in the safe waters of the Baltic, before and after Christmas, far from threats of submarine whereas every time PoW left the safety of Scapa Flow she was vulnerable.

It is notable from the KTB that the training program is a casual affair, at Christmas even Lindemann took leave. After Christmas with the ship anchored or moored most nights, in March, April and May the Baron and others overnight leave. It is no wonder informed authors have characterized Bismarck as being at the peak of her efficiency.

All the best

wadinga
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