The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:06 am

Hello everybody,

it is easy now knowing all the events and their correlations to find more confirmations on the available books.

On the book : Engage the Enemy More Closely: The Royal Navy in the Second World War by Correlli-Barnett editor W. W. Norton & Co.; 1st edition ( May 1, 1991 ).

In that book we can find the story of this Court Martial attempt by Adm Pound mainly connected with RearAdm Wake-Walker failure to re-engage the Bismarck at pages 298-299. To be noticed that Correlli-Barnett does not reference to Kennedy book, but directly to Adm Tovey original letter to S. Roskill ( dated Dec. 14, 1961 ) preserved into the Churchill archives folder 4/17 with the footnote 43 on page 928.

https://www.amazon.com/Engage-Enemy-Mor ... 0393029182

Correlli-Barnett is a British historian still alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlli_Barnett


Going back to Stephen Roskill it is just enough to read into his book : Naval Policy Between the Wars: The Period of Reluctant Rearmament, 1930-1939 first published on 1976.

At pages 463 and 464 there is a clear description of Adm Sir Dudley Pound personality, directly from who, like Stephen Roskill, served under him for five consecutive years from the on the fleet up to the Admiralty.

The last statement of Roskill about Adm Pound is of particular interest for this story :

... and that he ( Adm Pound ) loved " schedules and Courts of Inquiry " (1) an opinion with which this historian, who served under him for five consecutive years on the Mediterranean fleet Flagship and the Admiralty 1937-41, fully agrees.


That statement correlate to the footnote 1 that I have first found about S. Roskill contradicting Sir L. Kennedy on 1976 and declaring Adm Pound " addiction to enquiries" with the above statement that is more than enough to declare his personal opinion on the Court Martial attempt for the Denmark Strait declared to him by Adm Tovey.

https://www.amazon.com/Policy-Between-R ... 8TFPX4NEGX


Everything is confirmed by Robin Brodhurst book : Churchill anchor - The biography of Adm Pound edited on February 2001.

On the pages from 178 until to 183 there the same story with the Court Martial attempt ( page 180 ) and of Churchill continuous presence on the phone from Chequers and directly in the Admiralty ( footnote 12 - page 298-9 Correlli-Barnett ) war room keep on referring to the Troubridge event ( footnote 13 - page 296 J. Colville, The fringes of Power, page 391 ).

I have never read about a description of the events and the presence into the Whitehall Admiralty war room during those days better described before on a book.

https://www.amazon.com/Churchills-Ancho ... 0850527651

Now everybody interested on knowing this Cout Martial attempt story and the available evidences from the British historians, do have a correct path to follow in order to know more about it.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:50 pm

Hello Alberto,

Thank you for your kind comments,

However

I'm happy you decided to open your eyes and look at the reality, instead of just denying the evidences.


I contend my eyes have been wide open since the beginning :shock: What I do see is a Herculean effort to manufacture a mountain not even out of a molehill, but a single grain of sand.

The only evidence is that Tovey wrote to Roskill in 1961, referring to what must have been solely a conversation item with him in the mid Fifties with the CMDS story. Tovey although critical of Pound and Churchill in many areas, unaccountably told an author information he, Tovey, didn't want published at all, supposedly because of some concern for their reputation. There is no supporting evidence at all for Tovey's assertion of what took place during a what must have been a highly charged phone conversation on arrival at Scapa Flow. In this conversation between the victor and his commander, in addition to praise on success, was the former's outraged response to the "stupidest signal ever sent" and perhaps arguments over whose fault the D/F plotting error was. In such a highly charged situation, it may well be a threat or even the threat of a threat was made, and its seriousness misconstrued many years later.

There is no contemporaneous supporting evidence that the slightest effort was made to institute such proceedings or any subsequent recollection from anybody other than Tovey as Duncan has pointed out. Not a single confidant of Pound has ever come forward to confirm this thought was in his mind, and his resolution was so weak on it that Tovey supposedly "defeated" his superior by his counter threat to walk away from his C-in-C Home Fleet responsibilities to play at lawyers. Tovey's 1961 letter quoted in Barnett is a dramatic tour de force from a man who by his own admission kept no diary and had a poor memory. First Pound wants him to order a CM, he says no, because they acted as he wanted. Then Pound says never mind I still want you to do it and Tovey says no again. Then Pound says he will do it himself and Tovey produces his heroic flourish of relinquishment of command and his desire to enter the fray as the victims' champion. Not bad recollection for something that happened twenty years previously and kept a secret from almost everybody. And of those very few told one who worked with Tovey the longest alleges exaggeration.

Barnett quotes these words from the 1961 letter but prefaces this with "(according to Tovey's later account)" thus highlighting that this is a recollection shared by no-one else. Barnett has read Kennedy's caveat and Paffard's observations.

We know, having seen the complete Colville quote, that Churchill was raging at Cunningham's actions over Crete, not only Leach's. His anger over the perceived timidity of Cunningham in a much more important situation, involving greater loss of life, prestige and territory, about which he had complete information, contrasts with Denmark Straits where he had no knowledge of the actual circumstances.

The evidence Churchill had largely forgotten his rage at W-W and Leach is clear from the lack of discussion of Pound's report at the Cabinet meeting on the 27th or on any other subsequent occasion. There is discussion of Crete, but nothing about prosecuting any officers. It is Pound who promises a report and then doesn't deliver. It is Pound who says he will take Tovey's report (green ink) at the end of July and apparently doesn't. It is Pound at the end of September who says the Admiralty Board is happy enough and it is Alexander who suggests to Churchill that since in the 4 months previous, since he personally has spoken to Tovey and Leach that there is no point. The tactical details are of no interest to the War Cabinet since they are concerned with matters of State, not the incomprehensible minutae of naval engagements.

But WSC has spoken at length to both Tovey and Leach :shock: Yes he has. Since Winston likes painting and Tovey likes golf what are they going to talk about but the sinking of Bismarck? Since Winston has had a very comfortable and relaxing trip under Leach's captaincy aboard PoW, a vessel still bearing the scars of battle what are they going to talk about?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby dunmunro » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:20 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:

Everything is confirmed by Robin Brodhurst book : Churchill anchor - The biography of Adm Pound edited on February 2001.

On the pages from 178 until to 183 there the same story with the Court Martial attempt ( page 180 ) and of Churchill continuous presence on the phone from Chequers and directly in the Admiralty ( footnote 12 - page 298-9 Correlli-Barnett ) war room keep on referring to the Troubridge event ( footnote 13 - page 296 J. Colville, The fringes of Power, page 391 ).

I have never read about a description of the events and the presence into the Whitehall Admiralty war room during those days better described before on a book.

https://www.amazon.com/Churchills-Ancho ... 0850527651

Now everybody interested on knowing this Cout Martial attempt story and the available evidences from the British historians, do have a correct path to follow in order to know more about it.

Bye Antonio :D


No, I don't think Broadhurst confirms anything and again his ultimate source is Tovey:


Certainly Pound needed little encouragement from Churchill to prod
Wake-Walker, demanding to know how he was going to employ Prince of
Wales. In fact, Wake-Walker's reply that he doubted if Prince of Wales
had the speed to force an action infuriated Pound, and after the action he
wrote to Tovey demanding that Wake-Walker and Leach (captain of
Prince of Wales) be court-martialled for not re-engaging Bismarck. Much
to Tovey's credit he refused to do so, and no more was heard of this. (Broadhurst)



This is all that Broadhurst has to say about a potential CMDS. It is certainly telling that Pound's biographer cannot source the CMDS threat to anyone in Pound's circle but has to use Tovey.

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:35 pm

Hello everybody,

despite the overwhelming evidences provided about this regrettable aftermath, the trolling activity of the deniers at any cost of this shameful page is continuing.

It has been not enough to find the intentional altered documents, ... the original letters of Adm Tovey to Stephen Roskill declaring the facts, ... the connections upwards with the line of command, ... the War cabinet minutes asking for the inquiry, ... the connections with the politicians up to Churchill, ... and everything not written or discovered by me, ... but clearly written in British books from the 70's until today by the British most famous historians writing about the Royal Navy history.
Stephen Roskill, the Royal Navy Official historian for WW2 has been the one to preserve and publish on his 1977 book " Churchill and the Admirals " the document references that enabled me to find the final part of the truth about this story.

For them is not enough.
Nothing is enough and will never be enough for the ones that do not want the truth to Surface.
They will do everything possible to hide it and try to keep on refuting the reality as it shows.
Like Franz Joseph said about Mayerling : " Everything is better than the truth. "
They intentionally " avoided " to show us the content of well known British books by them, ... they wrote post's with the clear intent to diverge the attention from those authors and books, ... telling us that there was nothing interesting in there, ... nothing of any importance.

it is enough to go back on this thread at the beginning and also on other previous threads about this matter to read and verify what has been the intentional activity performed in this direction, ... an intentional trolling activity becoming more and more evident as we were coming up to the truth, ... until today.
But it has been useless, ... an useless effort because we have discovered the truth no matter what, ... and now it is available in this thread for everybody to read and realize it.
This Court Martial attempt story is real, ... was real and it will be published with full details and historical references and there is nothing that the "deniers at any cost" can do about it.

We do have the British Official Royal Navy historians on our side (all of them !), much more important that a couple of "deniers".

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:52 pm

Hello everybody,

not only we could have find the truth by reading Stephen Roskill " Churchill and the Admirals " 1977 book, but also thru Corelli Barnett 1991 book " Engage the enemy more closely " as you can verify yourself :

Corelli_Barnett_page_299.jpg
Corelli_Barnett_page_299.jpg (69.12 KiB) Viewed 145 times


Corelli_Barnett_footnote_43.jpg
Corelli_Barnett_footnote_43.jpg (6.98 KiB) Viewed 145 times


We could have find Adm Tovey original letters also thru this book as you can read and verify, ... connecting it to the Roskill Churchill archives 4/17, ... and obviously to the Adm 205/10 thru the Roskill 1977 book.

No doubts for Corelli Barnett, ... like for Stephen Roskill ... and Graham Rhys-Jones, ... etc etc etc ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:56 pm

Hello Duncan,

You are absolutely correct:

This is all that Broadhurst has to say about a potential CMDS. It is certainly telling that Pound's biographer cannot source the CMDS threat to anyone in Pound's circle but has to use Tovey.


It is even worse that Leach's biographer did not investigate such a threat against his subject more closely, being happy to deal with undated second or third hand retellings.

I am intensely disappointed that Graham Rhys-Jones (who is excellent in all other respects) has parroted the CMDS story, additionally describing a process of investigation of which no other evidence exists.

When Pound and Phillips showed they were going to leave no stone unturned in their search for errors and omissions, the stage was set for some sharp differences of opinion between the Admiralty and the C-in-C.


On what does he base this? Does this happen before Tovey has reached harbour so that the threat can be made on arrival? I suspect like many serving officers in the period of the RN's decline as the sun set on the British Empire, Rhys-Jones was prepared to promote any story that showed politicians in a poor light. True or not.

If this is meant to be me: :shock:

They intentionally " avoided " to show us the content of well known British books by them,


I have enthusiastically suggested that interested parties should read these titles themselves to get the full picture and specifically highlighted Brodhurst's examples of Pound's court martial predilection. Cutting out fragments to promote an argument whilst leaving out the qualifiers the authors included (Roskill citing Kennedy) (Barnett ["according to Tovey's later account]" ) etc is geniuinely poor behaviour.

However

Brodhurst spends the whole of page 113 describing Roskill's unfair bias against Pound, so it is poor practice that he repeats the CMDS story passed so conveniently by Roskill to Kennedy, except that he transmogrifies the Scapa Flow phone call into a letter. Since he cites no source at all for CMDS it is not surprising that the detail is wrong. He also says :

Wake-Walker's reply that he doubted if PoW has sufficient speed to force an action infuriated Pound and after the action he wrote to Tovey demanding W-W and Leach be court-martialled


Bizarre that whilst so infuriated he sent Wake-Walker a signal calling his efforts "admirable".

Once again reasoned argument is misclassified as "trolling".

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:40 pm

Hello everybody,

the only right thing I am reading here above, ... now for the first time since years, ... is that who wants to " deny at any cost " what has been revealed on British written and published books, ... preserved by British historians on their archives, ... taken and utilized as reliable source by other British book writers after, ... until recently, ... do have only one way to do it.

Go to their British book editors and ask them to publish a formal clarification if they believe to you and your current theory of Adm Tovey unreliability and not anymore on their book authors.

I wish you good luck on trying to " turn back " what has been written by Graham Rhys-Jones and Corelli Barnett ... just to list the most important recently surfaced, ... both referencing to Stephen Roskill 1977 book " Churchill and the Admirals " page 125, ... and to add to this attempt also the " turn back " of the 2 books 1976+1977 by Stephen Roskill, where this story is written and well supported by document references ( Adm205/10) as well as by his personal opinion ( " ... this historian fully agrees. " ) having been the Royal Navy Official historian for WW2 and having served 5 years under Adm Pound, ... and having talked in person with Adm Tovey form many years.

You may ask the help of that arrogant person that wanted to use legal actions against me and peer review my work, ... he surely will support your efforts on demonstrate the truth, ... against Roskill, ... against Corelli Barnett and Graham Rhys-Jones, ... just as he wanted to do it against me, ... :wink:

Do not forget to ask also the Naval Review to write a similar correction statement of their 1980 issue, declaring that they failed Adm Tovey healt status evaluation when they wrote the article about him too.
Published in the Naval Review issue of July 1980, on page 209 :

http://www.naval-review.com/issues/1980s/1980-3.pdf

Of course you will be so kind to ask the Adm Tovey internet page webmsaster's to publish a similar correction statement too :

http://www.tovey.org/admiral.html

Because you know the truth of his mental state at the time of his declarations to Stephen Roskill, ... and of course you can easily demonstrate it against S. Roskill written opinion at that time, ... and to everybody here listed in case of need, ... including us.

Not to forget several Wikipedia links, ... :wink:

We are all here waiting for your evidence of Adm Tovey unreliability due to his mental state.

Lets see how far you will go with your attempt, ... meanwhile we are waiting your results here and we have ready at hand our evidence of the opposite, lets see who has more in his hands.

But if you are just unable to do it and demonstrate that, ... please avoid to come here in again just using your " trolling " approach, ... joking and ridiculing with your statements who just listed the available evidences, ... writing on and on that you do not trust what is available published since many years by very important British historians, ... and well supported by British Official documents on the archives.

The only one that now are becoming more and more ridiculous, ... are just you.

Enough said, ...

Bye, Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:55 pm

Hello Antonio,

Thanks for bringing forward yet another muddled version of the legend in the Mariner's Mirror. That is the trouble with this CMDS story, everyone is so keen to get this salacious gossip in print they don't bother to check its veracity or the details, or why noboby published it before Kennedy. :shock: This version says it is Churchill personally making the CMDS threat. There is only one source for any of this stuff, Tovey's 1961 letter in which he claims he told Roskill in 1954.

We all know that Tovey told Roskill several things which were incorrect in 1954. We know he said the towing signal was before the Ark's airstrike which was incorrect. We know he said he was instructed to pursue to the shores of France which was incorrect. We know he specified bearings only and then complained when he didn't receive a worked-out solution.

As for your observation
writing on and on that you do not trust what is available published since many years by very important British historians


I thought you had told us many times that we should not trust what has been written for 72 years! :D

Seen any relevant letters from Pound to Tovey? Say on August 1st or 17th?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:08 pm

Hello everybody,

Stephen Roskill books, letters and archive content are more than enough to close this now usless debate, including Adm Tovey reliability, ... once for good.

The case is closed.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )


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