The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:12 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

please stop inventing things from your side :stop:

I have not fabricated anything.

The shame of this event and all has been done to " manage " it after it is into your official Archives and published by many British historians, including the Official one for WW2, namely Stephen Roskill.

You are the one trying to sell your opinion about all this, while we ( me and Alberto ) are just highlighting the reality available to everybody willing to understand and learn how the things really went.

No more offensive insinuations will be tolerated from my side.

If you and some others are unable to find the proper documents into the archives or just like to read in your way the few of them you like better, it is your problem and not mine.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:39 pm

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: "As Duncan has pointed out there was no prosecution because there was no case to answer."

No, just because there was no Bismarck afloat anymore.
North case is a good example, he too paid not only for his own errors but (mostly) also for the overall result (a failure for Britain).

Leach and Wake-Walker were saved by Bismarck sinking, despite Mr.Wadinga unwillingness to accept the evident fact that, had Bismarck survived, they would have had troubles.



Antonio Bonomi wrote: "No more offensive insinuations will be tolerated from my side"

Hi Antonio,
you are right, but please keep in mind that these poor deniers are just offending because they don't want to admit that they had been wrong since 5 years.


Coming to much more interesting (and finally new) things,

" ... I do not think there is any doubt that had Bismarck not being sunk the question of wheter the shadowing was adequately performed the night they gave us the slip would have come accutely to the fore ... " ,

Who could have written such words ? :think:

I guess Antonio has found another interesting evidence. I hope he will release this one, despite blatant offenses to his work. :clap:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:42 pm

Hello Alberto,

Yes Tovey's spelling was never impeccable. :D

accutely


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:07 pm

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: Tovey's spelling "


Mr. Wadinga seems to state that these are Tovey's words...... :think:
He quibbles, as usual, over the spelling, but he is unable (or unwilling) to understand what such a sentence means for his position......

"... I do not think there is any doubt that had Bismarck not being sunk the question of wheter the shadowing was adequately performed the night they gave us the slip would have come accutely to the fore ...".


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:26 pm

Hello Alberto,

Or is it Pound's spelling :wink:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:41 pm

I wrote: "Mr. Wadinga quibbles, as usual, over the spelling, but he is unable (or unwilling) to understand what such a sentence means for his position......"

Wadinga now writes: "Or is it Pound's spelling"


Q.E.D. :lol:
I'm also sure that Mr.Wadinga or Mr.Dunmunro will be shamelessly able to quibble about the fact that this statement refers to the shadowing and not to the re-engagement (or the dis-engagement)...... :stop:



I hope Antonio (I would say that he has many other interesting documents in his hands... :think: ) will be patient enough to ignore provocations, clarifying for everybody who said this interesting words.....

"... I do not think there is any doubt that had Bismarck not being sunk the question of whether the shadowing was adequately performed the night they gave us the slip would have come accutely to the fore ..."



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby dunmunro » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:34 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: "There is a section for "might have beens" called hypothetical scenarios"

:lol:
Extremely funny to hear now Mr.Wadinga speaking about speculations, after his fantasies about Brockman misleading Pound, Alexander and Churchill :shock: , after his insinuations about Roskill manipulating Tovey and trying to manipulate Kennedy :shock: , etc. :lol:


Had Bismarck survived, inflicted losses and damaged British interests, Leach and Wake-Walker would have surely been submitted to inquiry and court martial for letting her slip. They were just saved by the sinking of Bismarck without any further loss.
Somerville was inquired for much less, just because he was not so lucky to inflict damages to the Regia Marina at Spartivento and Troubridge was court-martialled because his "timidity" against Goeben (not redeemed by Milne and his battlecruisers) caused the war with the Ottoman Empire.

Regrettably, but very understandably (due to wartime needs, to political and propaganda reasons and just to pragmatism), not always the merits of an officer determine his career/disgrace, most often the mere results are taken into consideration and the Bismarck operation is a clear example of this.


Bye, Alberto



Show us a memo or letter from DP or WSC or AVA or the King, etc, etc, stating that such and such officer is to be prosecuted if Bismarck escapes. Beyond that, we get into, as Wadinga rightly states " "...might have beens" called hypothetical scenarios..." " but we are not discussing that here.

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby dunmunro » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:45 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

please stop inventing things from your side :stop:

I have not fabricated anything.

The shame of this event and all has been done to " manage " it after it is into your official Archives and published by many British historians, including the Official one for WW2, namely Stephen Roskill.

You are the one trying to sell your opinion about all this, while we ( me and Alberto ) are just highlighting the reality available to everybody willing to understand and learn how the things really went.

No more offensive insinuations will be tolerated from my side.

If you and some others are unable to find the proper documents into the archives or just like to read in your way the few of them you like better, it is your problem and not mine.

Bye Antonio :D


You've concocted a fantastic tale of conspiratorial wrong doing by Tovey and his gang, and express dismay when we don't agree.


No more offensive insinuations will be tolerated from my side.


You can start by not making any of your own.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:40 pm

Dunmunro wrote: "Show us a memo or letter from DP or WSC or AVA or the King, etc, etc, stating that such and such officer is to be prosecuted if Bismarck escapes"

Hi Duncan,
simple logic and historical episodes would suggest that. Else, neither Somerville would have been inquired nor Troubridge would have been Court Martialed..... :negative:
Only the successful end of the operation "saved" these officers and allowed Tovey to play hard against Pound. Even in this case, "certain aspects" HAD to be explained.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:55 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

you, just like your " denier " friends, are only able to stubbornly and blindly refuse anything that you do not like about the Royal Navy and those Officers no matter what is presented, ... you consider it your " sacred cow ".

It is just ridiculous to read you and your " hooligan " friends rejecting British Historian statements published on books and make your own interpretation on the Official documents available, ... refusing to admit geometry bearings and related obvious measurements never to admit the obvious when does not fit your proposed way to read the events, ... defining officers being " poor old sailors " ... or suffering for " memory failure or dementia " when you have no other arguments to counter the evidence presented.

Any evidence presented for you have a problem, ... nothing have to change your " sugar coated " events version that for 75 years your loved so much.

You and your " friends " are coming here in only for that reason, to counter everything that you do not like to read regarding the Royal Navy involvement into those events.

What I have demonstrated is into the British archives. You and your friends are better visit them and get properly documented.

Regarding the offenses I have only limited myself to properly react to " the most idiot member in this forum " and some offensive statements written by Wadinga.

You have not used that approach when you were left with no arguments, ... but just limited yourself to keep on repeating the same old story on and on again, ... trying to mud the waters and confuse the discussion, ... but you have never offended me personally yet.

Be sure that in case you will do it you will receive the same reaction the others have received.

I made the error to restart responding to you and Wadinga. This will never occur again in the future.

As far as I am concerned you and Wadinga can go back into the " black list " joining the " most idiot member of this forum " that I saw somebody likes very much.

Enough said ... it is just useless to discuss with you.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:42 pm

Hello All,

I really can't see any equivalency between interpreting what Brockman wrote in the Real World where we are, and imagining what might have happened should Bismarck not have been sunk ie some other parallel existence.

Antonio could be a bit forthcoming about his source on the latest quote. True I have called his "evidence" a miasma of inconsequential and irrelevant items but that is no reason to feel personally insulted. However, he has called two decorated RN officers, one of whom died in the line of duty, a "couple of cowards". :D

quibbles, as usual, over the spelling, but he is unable (or unwilling) to understand what such a sentence means for his position


without provenance they are empty words. They only become significant if they were said by somebody significant. I am only interested if the spelling is original and gives me a clue as to who wrote it.

We have a detailed explanation of why an actual inquiry was required, and happened in the Real World, by VCNS Tom Phillips. Is he also part of the conspiracy, and his reasons all lies?

Off to Venezia to see Marc Antonio Bragadin and find out why his less-heroic namesake started the first British Cover-Up/Conspiracy theory of WWII , a model for the slavish replica we are enmeshed in.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:51 am

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: "I really can't see any equivalency between interpreting what Brockman wrote in the Real World where we are, and imagining what might have happened should Bismarck not have been sunk"

Here Mr.Wadinga is right, what would have happened, had Bismarck raided free in Atlantic, is just logic and in line with Royal Navy expectations and traditions (as per the sentence posted by Antonio above: "there is no doubt that....").
Brockman having misled his bosses (just to try to deny ADM 205/10 crystal clear papers) is pure (not much credible) fantasy... :negative:


you wrote: "he has called two decorated RN officers, one of whom died in the line of duty, a "couple of cowards"."

so what ? First of all, cowards die in battle as well as heroes , they belong to winners as well as to losers and sometime they can vindicate themselves dying heroically.
The historical judgement of facts, even very tough with people deserving this treatment due to their acts, is one thing, mocking and insulting who is present here, seriously presenting facts and evidences, is another.
Why nobody, among the deniers, reacted when, in the movie "Sink the Bismarck", Lutjens was depicted as a Nazi fanatic, without any supporting evidence ?
We have the right (based on proven facts) to depict a couple of RN officers as very poor soldiers !

I see Mr.Wadinga feel himself as a crusader to defend these officers' reputation, but this attitude CANNOT allow him to be derisory against other forum members, even being clearly WITHOUT any solid evidence to deny what Antonio has finally unveiled.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby paul.mercer » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:00 pm

Gentlemen,
We are now almost up to number 86 in this debate and no-one shows any sign of winning or backing down, I enjoy leaning from your knowledge as I'm sure that we all benefit from each other, but recently the posts appear to be getting more and more hostile and are starting to go around in circles, should it not stop now before everyone falls out with each other over a debate that will probably never be settled?

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby pgollin » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:37 pm

.

Antonio,

I have a suggestion.

Write up your notes, SPECIFICALLY including YOUR interpretation of such things as "Board of Inquiry", "Courts Martial" and "Prisoner's Friend".

Then send it off for peer review.

I doubt that any reputable naval historian fully informed about the WW2 Royal Navy (i.e. a qualified peer reviewer) will give it any sort of approval.

Your basic misunderstanding is fatal to your arguments.

.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:28 pm

Paul Mercer wrote:"recently the posts appear to be getting more and more hostile and are starting to go around in circles, should it not stop now before everyone falls out with each other over a debate that will probably never be settled?"

Hi Paul,
I fully agree with your suggestion.

From his side, I see that Antonio Bonomi has already decided not to answer/speak anymore with people insulting, mocking, quibbling over terminology and definitions, unable to understand military behavior, or refusing to discuss "a priori".

From my side, I will try to do the same (just reacting to provocations and underlining with irony those who will still dare to post blatantly wrong statement about this story), as there is nothing more to be gained in an already closed discussion. :D


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)


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