The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1097
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:58 pm
...
Now we have found also a letter of September 15th, 1941 were Adm Tovey talked with Adm Pound about Wake-Walker need to " set a guard on his tongue ".

I think we agree that it is not regarding being generally speaking emphatic or sarcastic, ... but just being " very superficial " ( to say the least ) on his declarations, … just like Adm Tovey declaring the Bismarck being unsinkable to the RN battleship guns, ... for example.

Would you agree that we can only refer to the BBC interview and to the Hood First board " superficial " declarations on this regard ?

Do you have other evidence of RearAdm Wake-Walker speech performances where he needed to " set a guard to his tongue " released between May and September 1941 ?
Um....no I don't agree. The letter is clear without ambiguity: it relates to "emphatically".
Antonio, you're speaking English so much better than me, but sometimes you drive me crazy and I think your reading comprehension is - metaphorically speaking and in good fun - like google translate on LSD.
Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:58 pm

Last but not least, ... the so called " Silver Bullet " will be released with my future book about the Bismarck.
Like it or not I will never disclose it before.

It is clear to me that no matter what document we will find and whatever it will state, ... the " hooligan/deniers " on this forum will never accept what has been already largely demonstrated referencing the document list above.

If someone does not find conclusive for the threat demonstration the May 31st, 1941 letter from Tovey to Pound, ... it is his problem.

If someone does not realize what Adm Tovey explained to Stephen Roskill later about that real threat occurred on full details, ... I do not know what else he thinks is needed to prove this event.

Hope you are not even thinking to try declare Adm Tovey being unreliable or suffering for memory failures when he was writing and visiting Stephen Roskill.
Am I right assuming this ?

The way I read the sources presented so far, they are not really in favour for you. In regard of Tovey I already made my statement:
Herr Nilsson wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:32 am
...in my experience memories are changing over the years therefore Tovey's and Ellis' memories have to be treated with caution...
Regards

Marc

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:26 am

Hello everybody,
Dunmunro wrote: "Leach's battleship wasn't very efficient at all"
A pity for Mr.Dunmunro that Captain Leach himself was not in agreement with his judgement (already just after 20 minutes from the disengagement, listing as the ONLY serious damage the one auto-inflicted to turret Y due to the decision to disengage..... :lol:)

Leach_Damages-Norfolk_Message_Log.jpg
Leach_Damages-Norfolk_Message_Log.jpg (15.58 KiB) Viewed 298 times


How many times have we to discuss already proven and demonstrated facts just because deniers stubbornly refuse to accept them ?..... :stubborn:

The Bismarck was damaged as well (and more seriously than PoW !), as normal in a battle between battleships, and the clear duty of Captain Leach was to try to further damage the enemy and to allow its destruction by the Home Fleet.
In any Navy, such a (IMO improper) withdrawal decision would have been severely scrutinized and judged according to the military rules: it was not ONLY because Bismarck had been sunk anyway.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:45 pm

Hello All,

This thread is not about whether there should have been a Court Martial threat, but whether there actually was one in 1941. Attempts to divert things off onto arguments about people's perceptions of how damaged PoW was or not are just more Pillenwerfers to cover the refusal of some posters to divulge pertinent information they have in their possession. There are other threads with all the information on P o W's damage.

I would caution Northcape to be careful of falling into the trap of suggesting there are nationalistic elements to this. Those proclaiming this defamation are keen to exploit such opportunities. The majority, who are in opposition to this distortion of the truth to support an outrageous Conspiracy Theory range from around the world. It is clear even to those whose first language is not English that Tovey's September letter is unhesitatingly in support of Wake-Walker for the job of Pound's deputy, a suggestion which would be ludicrous if the First Sea Lord had actually wanted him Court Martialled a mere three months earlier. As a native English speaker I am forever grateful this discussion is in this language and most impressed by the abilities of all the contributors here, except when some apparently deliberately misconstrue, so as to distort meaning.


Hello Antonio,

you have said
The Official documents are still available to demonstrate it.
We are just endlessly debating the details in between those 2 well proven main occurrences.
Only because you and your co-author refuse to release what you claim is new contemporaneous evidence which would clear this impasse.
I arrived to this determination "bottom up" and not " top down " as you are putting it now,
I thought you admitted your basis was "intuitions", not evidence?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3301
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:02 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you wrote on last May :
...in my experience memories are changing over the years therefore Tovey's and Ellis' memories have to be treated with caution...
I fully agree with you, and this is the reason why I trust Capt Ellis words when they do match with my personal measurements and calculation of his distance from the German formation that morning and similarly I fully trust Adm Tovey when his late life explanations are perfectly in line with the recently surfaced May 31st, 1941 letter statements, ... not to talk about Stephen Roskill personal evaluation of Adm Tovey memory written directly to Sir L. Kennedy that was trying to put Adm Tovey memory in discussion.

Do you see any comparable reason not to believe to their memories ?

What will it be your way to understand Adm Tovey May 31st, 1941 letter statements :
" I have no intention of ordering a Bord of Inquiry into the conduct of Wake-Walker or Leach under any circumstances, but I am only too ready to submit to any Board of Inquiry or Court Martial Their Lordships see fit to order to enquire into my own actions. "
Was Adm Pound asking about a recognition, asking Adm Tovey about a mention or a DSC or a DSO ?
Obviously NO, it is self evident.

Was Adm Pound asking for a Board of Inquiry into the conduct of Wake-Walker or Leach to Adm Tovey ?
Definitively YES, and in case that Board of Inquiry was confirming the reasons why Adm Pound was asking it to Adm Tovey, then Adm Tovey being their superior was consequently required to write the necessary Circumstantial Letter needed by the existing process to start the Court Martial.

This is simply the reason why Adm Tovey responded that he was not going to do it under any circumstances, and consequently, being their superior was taking the defense of their actions and in case Adm Pound at that point wanted to proceed no matter what, it was Adm Tovey at that point that Adm Pound needed to submit to a Board of Inquiry or directly to a Court Martial, being that the final declared intent by Adm Pound as most likely already explained to Adm Tovey either on the phone or into the Adm Pound May 28th, 1941 letter ( not possible to be found yet into the archives were it should obviously be :think: ).

I like your opinion and in case confirmation of your agreement on the above statements. Thanks

NOTE : It is obvious that just only the May 31st, 1941 letter statements taken as we can read them are fully confirming the beginning of this " regrettable aftermath " that this " Denmark Strait Saga " have been, ... until the October King recognition.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:58 pm

Hello Antonio,
being their superior was taking the defense of their actions and in case Adm Pound at that point wanted to proceed no matter what, it was Adm Tovey at that point that Adm Pound needed to submit to a Board of Inquiry or directly to a Court Martial, being that the final declared intent by Adm Pound as most likely already explained to Adm Tovey either on the phone

Is this unclear description supposed to cover the fact that there is no mention whatsoever in the 31st May letter of Tovey's theatrical "No, no and thrice no!" three-act to and fro denial of the Supreme Commander of the Royal Navy's demands? Whereupon the frustrated God of the Navy, who supposedly believes them guilty of cowardice and dereliction of duty, just says "Oh all right then!" shrugs his shoulders and gets on with some other stuff he has to do. Then a scant three months later, Tovey, apparently the only other man in the world apart from Pound to know of this threat, then writes glowingly of Wake-Walker as an ideal candidate to be Pound's understudy. :shock:

Was Adm Pound asking about a recognition, asking Adm Tovey about a mention or a DSC or a DSO
No need, Tovey was making recommendations for awards.
Was Adm Pound asking for a Board of Inquiry into the conduct of Wake-Walker or Leach to Adm Tovey ?
Definitively YES,
And was he really keen to see it happen? Definitively NO, because he gave it up immediately at the very first check, expressed in hard copy in a few lines before moving on to more important matters in Tovey's 31st May letter. Pound was clearly only "going through the motions" to placate Winston's histrionics over the weekend, with the bonus that when it found them innocent, the Great Man would be embarrassed at sticking his nose into matters about which he had inadequate knowledge and experience.

And say it quietly: expending effort on such a wild goose chase would mean no time to chase up the real scandal of the Bismarck Hunt, the missed D/F opportunity, or even the War Cabinet's real question about why British gunnery alone couldn't Sink the Bismarck during a two hour cannonade!


Northcape, as you regard this debate as "insane" and you may well be right :wink: , what about discussing the D/F Controversy?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3301
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:36 pm

Hello everybody,
NUNZIO VOBIS MAGNUM GAUDIUM, .... HABEMUS ... AGREEMENT ! ... ( hopefully )
Somebody seems to suddenly and unexpectedly being able to read an English statement written into an Official document ( letter from Adm Tovey to Adm Pound on May 31st, 1941 ) ... and agree about what it clearly state ... :shock:

I mean this statement being agreed :
Was Adm Pound asking for a Board of Inquiry into the conduct of Wake-Walker or Leach to Adm Tovey ?
Definitively YES, ...
In relation to this original letter statement by Adm Tovey I was referring to :
" I have no intention of ordering a Bord of Inquiry into the conduct of Wake-Walker or Leach under any circumstances, but I am only too ready to submit to any Board of Inquiry or Court Martial Their Lordships see fit to order to enquire into my own actions. "
It must have been because today it is June 13th, ... which is Sant' Antonio da Padova, ... which is the Saint I have been taken the name from, ... so my name-day.

Sant-Antonio_da_Padova.jpeg
Sant-Antonio_da_Padova.jpeg (44.4 KiB) Viewed 238 times


Thanks Sant'Antonio for having helped me restoring the understanding of the guy and please, ... if I can ask you an additional miracle, ... can you teach him some basic geometry and trigonometry too, ... I hope it will be not asking for too much, ...

Your faithful and devoted servant, ... Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:16 pm

Hello Antonio,

Since:
He is especially invoked and venerated all over the world as the patron saint for the recovery of lost items and is credited with many miracles involving lost people, lost things and even lost spiritual goods, maybe he will help me find the 28th May letter and you miraculously recover your lost sense of fairness and responsibility (spiritual goods) and publish the "Silver Bullet" you are currently hiding. :pray:
And was he really keen to see it happen? Definitively NO, because he gave it up immediately at the very first check, expressed in hard copy in a few lines before moving on to more important matters in Tovey's 31st May letter. Pound was clearly only "going through the motions" to placate Winston's histrionics over the weekend, with the bonus that when it found them innocent, the Great Man would be embarrassed at sticking his nose into matters about which he had inadequate knowledge and experience.
Tovey effectively says if your masters have any complaints about any aspects of the chase, come after me if there are that keen. Put up or shut up. Pound shuts up completely, his heart was never in it. Nothing in the letter about Tovey hauling down his flag and putting on a wig and lawyer's gown as he thought up sometime in the 1950s. Embellishments make a much better "sailor's story" to impress Roskill with. Except he smells a rat and dumps it on Kennedy. Exaggerated just as Paffard said.


All the best


wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1097
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:18 pm

@Antonio

I will be very busy the next 10 days therefore I want to try to shorten it.

Firstly: I mentioned Ellis in another thread/context and your calculations and your measurements based on your map are right, but unfortunately your map is wrong.
Secondly: Even if you could really prove that there was a court martial threat, so what?

There is nothing spectacular on what happend after the sinking of Bismarck.
Regards

Marc

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3294
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:42 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:26 am
Hello everybody,
Dunmunro wrote: "Leach's battleship wasn't very efficient at all"
A pity for Mr.Dunmunro that Captain Leach himself was not in agreement with his judgement (already just after 20 minutes from the disengagement, listing as the ONLY serious damage the one auto-inflicted to turret Y due to the decision to disengage..... :lol:)


Leach_Damages-Norfolk_Message_Log.jpg


How many times have we to discuss already proven and demonstrated facts just because deniers stubbornly refuse to accept them ?..... :stubborn:

The Bismarck was damaged as well (and more seriously than PoW !), as normal in a battle between battleships, and the clear duty of Captain Leach was to try to further damage the enemy and to allow its destruction by the Home Fleet.
In any Navy, such a (IMO improper) withdrawal decision would have been severely scrutinized and judged according to the military rules: it was not ONLY because Bismarck had been sunk anyway.


Bye, Alberto
This post is typical of your attempts to smear Leach, W-W and the RN but in making it you only prove to the world how you use snippets of info, taken out of context, to distort the truth. Every statement that I made is true, and is easily shown to be true:
had lost 1 x 14in gun permanently and had subpar output from it's remaining main armament amounting to the effective loss of another gun.
had lost all it's radar systems
Had lost it's entire secondary armament due to HADT damage
had lost many of the command personnel from a hit on the compass platform
had suffered funnel and machinery damage from a 38cm hit
had suffered UW damage and flooding aft
was pitting 8 effective 14in guns against Lutjen's 8 x 38cm, 6 x 15cm, 8 x 10.5cm, 8 x 20.3cm and 6 x 10.5cm guns and hits from any of these guns could have knocked out her remaining 14in DCTs.
was rapidly closing the range and losing her immune zone from 38cm guns.
Had virtually no chance of stopping Bismarck and none whatsoever of stopping PE because she could not engage her.
I know you know this:
http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrai ... amage1.htm

and you also know that Leach couldn't know that Bismarck had suffered any damage, which in any event didn't impair her FC systems.

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:53 pm

Hello everybody,

I can make a list of the more severe damages sustained by Bismarck, while Capt.Leach himself recognized that PoW damages were just "superficial" few minutes after the battle :lol: and even his G.O. had sent him the boy's message "Guns are OK !", but I will accept instead Mr.Wadinga (verbose) suggestion, while Mr.Dunmunro is apparently unable to shut up when invited (by another denier...) to do so......
Wadinga wrote: "This thread is not about whether there should have been a Court Martial threat, but whether there actually was one in 1941. Attempts to divert things off onto arguments about people's perceptions of how damaged PoW was or not are just more Pillenwerfers........"

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3294
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:51 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:53 pm
Hello everybody,

I can make a list of the more severe damages sustained by Bismarck, while Capt.Leach himself recognized that PoW damages were just "superficial" few minutes after the battle :lol: and even his G.O. had sent him the boy's message "Guns are OK !", but I will accept instead Mr.Wadinga (verbose) suggestion, while Mr.Dunmunro is apparently unable to shut up when invited (by another denier...) to do so......
Wadinga wrote: "This thread is not about whether there should have been a Court Martial threat, but whether there actually was one in 1941. Attempts to divert things off onto arguments about people's perceptions of how damaged PoW was or not are just more Pillenwerfers........"

Bye, Alberto
So now you are claiming that the PoW damage reports and photos are all faked... :stubborn: :(
Alberto Virtuani wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 am
Hello everybody,

refusing to accept the gross provocation about the Regia Marina and the implicit allusion to nationality (and nationalism) aspects (forbidden on this forum :stop: ), I wonder whether it is praised in any Navy
that the Captain of a still efficient battleship (fact, as per Leach message)
retreats in front of the enemy while engaged (leaving the enemy free to continue his mission) and that a flag officer commanding a still numerically superior force does not re-engage the same enemy (fact) even after having been "solicited" by his Admiralty..... :lol:

The case is well existing and ONLY the final sinking of Bismarck prevented the two officers to be Court Martialled, overcoming Churchill's, Pound's and Phillips' fully justified anger. Had Bismarck survived (and possibly inflicted damages to British interests), not only Leach and W-W (plus Ellis) would have paid for their actions, but I guess Tovey himself would have been replaced as CinC HF, the very same day.
I find the pragmatic decision to exploit the success (instead of prosecuting) quite correct in wartime, but the real shame was the subsequent decoration for both these poor officers...... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
The above is the post that you made and to which I replied, and to which you attempt now to deflect from, but at least it brings out some important aspects of your attempts to smear Leach.

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:24 pm

Hello everybody,

despite the stubborn attempt of this guy to try to divert discussion to the full list of damages sustained by the PoW (NOT RELEVANT TO THIS THREAD as his co-denier has correctly recalled), they were indeed considered "superficial" by his commanding officer in his first signal, except the self-inflicted Y turret jamming.
Capt.Leach retreat, at the very first hits received on board, was well worth a Court Martial in any Navy and according to any military discipline in the world.... :stop:

Leach_Damages-Norfolk_Message_Log.jpg
Leach_Damages-Norfolk_Message_Log.jpg (15.58 KiB) Viewed 186 times

Of course, in the subsequent signals and mostly in Tovey's final despatches the damages were presented as being more and more severe and incapacitating (to try to justify the run away, that still embarrasses these guys.... :lol: )

I do refuse to start again the discussion about all these superficial damages with someone who doesn't want to accept plain facts and unfairly puts in my mouth words that I have never said (e.g. the "faked damage report"... :negative: He is above using an intentionally FALSE STATEMENT!). There are specific threads in this forum that analyze all the damages: NO ONE was preventing PoW from continuing her engagement and from further damaging Bismarck.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3294
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:56 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:24 pm


Of course, in the subsequent signals and in Tovey's final despatches the damages were presented as being more and more severe (to try to justify the run away, that still embarrasses these guys....)

So you stand by your claim that the PoW damage report and photos were faked... :lol:

Do you really think that you now retain any credibility? Anyone reading this forum can plainly see how you are willing to distort the historical record in your attempt to prop up the fraud you and A are attempting to perpetrate.

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:18 pm

Hello everybody,

finally a single correct statement from Mr:Dunmunro :clap: : anyone reading this forum can plainly see how the deniers are refusing to accept what even Capt.Leach plainly admitted.
His credibility is lost since long time (but he is even intentionally lying now: the damage report is ok, Tovey's despatches description of damages is not. Is this annoying Mr.Dunmunro able to see the difference ? )..... :lol:

This is NOT the thread subject, however, but Mr.Dunmunro insists as per his bad habit.....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3301
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:02 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you wrote :
Firstly : I mentioned Ellis in another thread/context and your calculations and your measurements based on your map are right, but unfortunately your map is wrong.
What count is that we can confirm that Capt Ellis own autobiography released declarations ( Churchill archives ) were all correct and his memory was fully reliable, as it was easy to realize also by reading what he wrote on the many arguments he mentioned.
Capt Ellis reliability is proven and the case is closed.
Secondly : Even if you could really prove that there was a court martial threat, ...
It works the other way around, because I do not need to prove that there was a Court Martial threat, since it is already proved by Adm Tovey letters.
In the opposite there is nothing I have seen so far proving he was not reliable, ... and in that case we can counter it with the Stephen Roskill additional confirmation in writing declaring Adm Tovey being fully reliable at that time written soon after Sir Kennedy released book, where Kennedy was mentioning the possibility that Adm Tovey may have been not fully reliable late on his life ( Paffard ).
Also here the case is closed.
... so what?
Very simple, my event sequence re-construction is confirmed being correct :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8240

Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Post Reply