KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.
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wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:48 pm

Hello All,

If:
The fall of shot of these three salvoes is uncertain.

How could Aylwin possibly carry out the most stupendously-accurate correction in gunnery history and go from missing by thousands of yards to nearly hitting (OK the wrong ship) and missing by only two or three hundred, when it is recorded here he never even saw the enormous white splash we are discussing on another thread? You can't correct what you haven't spotted.

Doh! Of course, I know............McMullen was lying.
Who is pretending to use a very old and incorrect map ( started by F.O. Busch on 1943 and used by several authors until 1990 ) and overcome the official Kriegsmarine documents and the original PG battle map we have now available,
In fact the map in Im Ersten Gefecht by Busch does not show a separate track for Bismarck, suggesting both ships remained in line throughout and shows a turn away by both at about 05(6):00. The Gefectschizze does not show Bismarck's track at all and IIRC the PG KTB merely mentions Bismarck was in OG's line of fire after her (PG's) third turn.


In Busch's later The Story of Prince Eugen he shows simultaneous turns to starboard by both German ships at 05(6):00 actually turning so far as to put PoW directly astern of both ships.


Oh yes those "several authors" include Mullenheim-Rechberg and Schmalenbach.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:44 pm

Hello everybody,

no problems, ... now slowly everybody must express himself, ... and I like to collect the different way to see and read those events as well as to realize which map and tracks for the German warships they do support.

How Aylwin was doing with the Y turret will be described in technically artillery details when my publication will be out, ... directly from E. Bagnasco description to me years ago.

What somebody writing here above is supporting is clear to me, ... an old 1943 originated map ( reprinted on many books many times after ) where Bismarck is showed turning to starboard at 05:55 or 05:56, ... :shock: ... and Prinz Eugen does more or less the same been on course 270° at 06:00, ... :shock:

This one :
1990_Rechberg_based_on_Schmalenbach_PG_1971.jpg
1990_Rechberg_based_on_Schmalenbach_PG_1971.jpg (37.91 KiB) Viewed 211 times

Among the very many inconsistencies and evident errors ( including the British ship tracks ) that map does not utilize the correct Prinz Eugen battle map track and does not respect the 06:03 turn to starboard of both German warships due to the torpedo ALARM issued by Prinz Eugen.

Now I like to see how many persons do support that map here in public.

So far I count only one, ... just one, ... and for the known reasons.

Who else is thinking that the above map is something realistic based on today Denmark Strait available battle documentation knowledge ?

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:38 pm

Hello Antonio,

What no donkey pictures?
How Aylwin was doing with the Y turret will be described in technically artillery details when my publication will be out, ... directly from E. Bagnasco description to me years ago.
The fall of shot of these three salvoes is uncertain.

It seems we must wait for some time to find out the arcane truth of how Aylwin first knows he has missed, secondly by how much, without even knowing where the splash of salvo 19 occurred , and how he would determine at which azimuth and elevation to fire his only single available gun next, given he had no prediction available of Bismarck's movement (she is changing course radically), and indeed no idea when his own vessel will stop swinging and heeling. We must wait some years apparently, whereas Claude Aylwin had just five seconds between the fall of shot he wasn't sure about, and firing his next-to-last shot. Which he also wasn't sure about where it landed. Obviously there was insufficient time to use a Ouija board or chicken entrails, and the Force was evidently "not with him" so the result was likely rather wild in Geoffrey Brooke's opinion. So wild Brooke makes no mention of seeing where they landed even though he had his Director's binoculars on Bismarck by this time. McMullen's "uncertain" observation is clearly based on Aylwin and Brooke's reports. If what is claimed in your assertion had actually happened in the real world there would been cause for some hearty back-slapping and celebration and the basis for much rivalry between gunnery matelot and Marine.


Can I ask for some help with
and does not respect the 06:03 turn to starboard of both German warships due to the torpedo ALARM issued by Prinz Eugen.



As I have said I found no indication of Bismarck's course (or any changes) being described in the PG KTB and the explanation for the Prinz avoiding torpedoes causing her to heel sharply in rapid turns makes no mention of informing the flagship or of any corresponding manouevres by Bismarck. For someone specifically detailed to guard against torpedo attack it is surprising that the Baron makes no mention of a torpedo warning or indeed of manoeuvres to avoid them. Although Lutjens and Brinkmann are in communication after the action there is apparently no mention of the torpedo attack by either party, although one might expect even "Gloomy Guther" to thank PG for the timely warning.
evident errors ( including the British ship tracks )

Although there may be some shortcomings, the PoW track faithfully records the sharp turn towards the enemy experienced by Brooke and recorded by several German witnesses as Leach steered his ship around the wreckage of Hood, a feature completely missing from the British salvo plot and Rowell's map, and which affected the closing rates and hences ranges for salvoes. Norfolk and Suffolk's positions are rendered merely symbolically as they were so far away as to be irrelevant to the action.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:30 pm

Hello everybody,

I think that nothing else can be done, ... the guy is in total " delirium " state ... :shock:

smiles.jpg
smiles.jpg (33.06 KiB) Viewed 188 times

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:52 pm

Hello Antonio,

Is this a toothpaste advert?

I asked you some civil questions and prevarication is the response- at least I don't get a donkey this time.

You intend to withhold Signor Bagnasco's explanation until you can monetize it, and insist on your identification of certain splashes without explaining how such stupendous accuracy could be achieved when unable to see where the previous salvo landed.

Your inaccuracy about the origin of the map you showed is noted, and evasiveness over the torpedo alarm is not surprising. We have been here before. There are secrets to be uncovered about Denmark Straits, but they are not the cowardice and conspiracy amongst the Royal Navy officers that has been alleged.

All the best


wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:13 pm

Hello everybody,

It does not take a genius to realize what was done into the Y turret firing in local control, ... it is enough to use some logic.

I suggest the careful reading of the documents, ... I mean the German original and official documents that apparently has been totally ignored until today by whom is here today, ... after what has been published about this battle, ... and widely commented on hundreds of threads on this forum, ... writing those enormity and non sense, ... and supporting while proposing us a sure wrong map.

Closing with the Royal Navy Officers accusation and request of a Board of Inquiry into their conduct while in action, ... again as I wrote several times already, ... someone should focus on Adm Tovey and Adm Pound letters, ... and to all the British historians writing about it until today.

But what can be really asked to someone in total confusion and delirium state pretending to " cancel " now what has been requested by their direct superiors on 1941, ... either he is unable to read the letters and the documents written on his own language, ... or he is going totally out of mind as it seems.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Algonquin-R17 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:00 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:30 pm
Hello everybody,

I think that nothing else can be done, ... the guy is in total " delirium " state ... :shock:


smiles.jpg


Bye Antonio
Sean has logically, scientifically and surgically destroyed your Writers Fantasy once again in this thread as he always does and this is what you respond with, nothing. Some of your counter arguments are derogative, defamatory and uncomplimentary. Are we supposed to be impressed with this and accept it as a valid, in kind, factual contribution to the discussion. Next it will be the same old defense, toss up the old diagrams, pictures, spread sheets, even an oil painting of all things generated for propaganda purposes after the fact. All of which are based on your interpretation. All of which are full of holes you cannot factually eliminate. Ignore eye witnesses if they contradict your Fantasy. Even if they were actually there, in the battle, and even on the German ships! What difference does logic make, there is no room for that here, it cannot be contemplated as a part of the discussion, only you can see what nobody else can see.

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:07 am

Hello everybody,

we have another " genius " here, ... surely having read and understood all the available documents including the German official ones with the related maps and data, timings and events description.

Are you able to see and compare the Prinz Eugen original track :

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrai ... tlemap.htm

Are you able to understand what those German documents explain including the map :

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8285

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrai ... rpedos.htm

Are you able to see to what Prince of Wales was firing and what the PoW navigator officer showed on his map ( down below the page you have the 2 original maps ) :

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09guns.htm


If you are unable to see and mostly to understand what all the above original map shows, ... from both sides, ... British and German, ... you better avoid to comment your nonsense here in and expose yourself in such a way.

Last but not least, if this website and the Hood website on their official history section do not use the above non sense proposed map but a simple map that is very similar to the more complete work I have done, ... there must be a reason, ... don't you think so ?

http://www.kbismarck.com/denmark-strait-battle.html

bataislani01.gif
bataislani01.gif (29.78 KiB) Viewed 143 times

Please notice into the Hood link page 2 here below the battle map example and the recommendations written below the map :

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/bismarck1.htm

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/bismarck2.htm

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/bismarck3.htm

battlemapper.gif
battlemapper.gif (33.3 KiB) Viewed 142 times


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:46 pm

Hello Algonquin-R17,

Thanks for your kind words. I do and will continue to search for, and promote the truth with regard to Denmark Straits.


You mention the Conspiracy Theorist's tendency:
Ignore eye witnesses if they contradict your Fantasy.
Sometimes exactly the same sources for instance Lagemann and Bundesarchiv are supposed to support the Fantasy, at which time they are presented as unimpeachable.
the photo incompetent denier, ... you have to accept what this photo shows, ... and tell us if you have any evidence to counter it.

Bundesarchiv_Bismarck_first_salvo.jpeg (64.17 KiB) Viewed 330 times

Otherwise, ... you have to SHUT UP !!!

Bye Antonio

I hope you will not heed the admonition:
you better avoid to comment your nonsense here in and expose yourself in such a way.

The only thing being "exposed" around here is the fallacy of the Conspiracy Theory and the non-existent evidence like the deliberate suppression of PoW's turn toward the enemy to avoid admitting Leach's panicky invented "instantaneous turn" never happened, or that splashes around Prinz Eugen came from PoW instead of Hood as Lagemann said.


Your countryman Duncan has done excellent work in populating the PoW and KGV GAR information. Despite the "noise" and rampant sensationalistic claims made to try and float a defamatory book deal, new useful information is coming to light on these threads. Others have made equally valuable contributions, which is as I understand it, Mr Rico's objective.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:45 pm

Hello everybody,

reading above, the deniers instead ignore the official documents (PG battlemap, PoW maps and GAR) preferring to trust demonstrated wrong captions and inventing their own tracks just to defend two timid officers..... :lol:

When they will present a decent credible and alternative battlemap we will diuscuss, for the time being the only precise one is Antonio's 2005 map (revised in 2017 with better tracks for NF and SF).


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:01 pm

Hello everybody,

my 2005 battle map is still the reference for this battle, ... as those 2 websites clearly show too.

Until someone will publish something better the " hooligan/deniers " can only show their frustration and uselessly try to counter it using those unreliable poor battle maps made long time ago when some currently available official maps and documents were not available.

The " hooligan/deniers " frustration for the 2 " cowards " that their own Admiralty wanted to put under a Board of Inquiry for their conduct while in action, ... and after to an almost sure Court Martial will remain no matter what, ... being historically demonstrated.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by paul.mercer » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:26 pm

Gentlemen,
In an earlier post I asked if this 'failure to fire' was common amongst WW2 ships, and apparently it was. What still puzzles me is what is the reason for these failures (PoW we know about) For instance, is it a failure of continuous supply of cordite and shell, a mistake or mishandling by the gun crew or just straight forward mechanical problems? I realise things tend to always go wrong at critical times, but surely on a fully worked up ship generally speaking everything in the turret should go like the proverbial clockwork?
My other question is the shell in PoW's Y turret jamming ,on the turn, again surely if a ship is in a fight against another it will be twisting and turning all the time to avoid falling shells (steering to the fall of shot) so it appears that this was not allowed for in the quad turret design, correct, or am I off course! Finally, are there any records in Vickers or RN archives that analyze the failure of PoW's guns?

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:17 pm

Hi Paul,
I think all the causes you list were possible on board WWII battleships, where very complex, fast acting, mechanisms were "coupled" to more flexible but less reliable human beings.
you wrote: "are there any records in Vickers or RN archives that analyze the failure of PoW's guns?"
We all know McMullen GAR, giving some explanation for the failures.
There is also a long memo from Mr.Wilkinson (manager in Vickers and later chief designer) to S.Roskill (dated 1965) that explains the problems with 14" turrets and provides additional info about guns failures in PoW during the Bismarck operation (based on the report of Mr.Barben, Vickers foreman in charge of guns on board of PoW during the operation).
The latter is protected by copyright, therefore, if you are interested, please send me a private message with your personal mail address and I will provide you the relevant parts of the memo (already discussed at length on this very thread).


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by wadinga » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:32 am

Hello All,
We all know McMullen GAR, giving some explanation for the failures.
There is also a long memo from Mr.Wilkinson (manager in Vickers and later chief designer) to S.Roskill (dated 1965) that explains the problems with 14" turrets and provides additional info about guns failures in PoW during the Bismarck operation (based on the report of Mr.Barben, Vickers foreman in charge of guns on board of PoW during the operation).
The latter is protected by copyright, therefore, if you are interested, please send me a private message with your personal mail address and I will provide you the relevant parts of the memo (already discussed at length on this very thread).

Don't bother, uninformed the phrase "The guns are fine", proves that all this stuff is a lie subsequently made up to excuse Leach's actions.


All the best

wadinga
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Re: KGV and PoW GAR during Op. Rheinubung

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:02 am

Hello everybody,

The crusader Mr.Wadinga should show us where McMullen or Wilkinson/Barben say that the 14" of PoW were NOT FIT FOR ACTIVE SERVICE. :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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