Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[alecsandros]

Instead of acting like a troll you could respond politely by directing readers to this topic:

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5752 (explains some KM FC terminology and technology including the above).

Of course it is obvious that Bismarck didn't maintain a constant output from 0553-0609.

TROLLING is what this individual is doing for years.

What is obvious is that Hood approached at 1200m/min and Bismarck's gun systems were having an awfull time keeping on target (the above system was responsible for automatic gun elevation and depression). After 6:03, all firing was done on radar ranges only, as the chemical smoke generated by PoW precluded adequate sighting and targetting.

[dunmunro]

Instead of acting like a troll you could respond politely by directing readers to this topic:

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5752 (explains some KM FC terminology and technology including the above).

Of course it is obvious that Bismarck didn't maintain a constant output from 0553-0609.

TROLLING is what this individual is doing for years.

What is obvious is that Hood approached at 1200m/min and Bismarck's gun systems were having an awfull time keeping on target (the above system was responsible for automatic gun elevation and depression). After 6:03, all firing was done on radar ranges only, as the chemical smoke generated by PoW precluded adequate sighting and targetting.

You state above that Bismarck was having troubles obtaining a FC solution even when Hood was visible through Bismarck's optical sights, but firing using radar would have made the situation far worse, because the bearing accuracy of radar was far worse than optical bearing accuracy.

[alecsandros]

You state above that Bismarck was having troubles obtaining a FC solution even when Hood was visible through Bismarck's optical sights, but firing using radar would have made the situation far worse, because the bearing accuracy of radar was far worse than optical bearing accuracy.

Visibility wasn't good, wind was blowing Bismarck's funnel and gun smoke towards the enemy , momentarily ( a few seconds) obscuring the horizon towards the 2 British warships, until the smoke was dissipated and blown away.

I don't say she had trouble OBTAINING the FC solution - that was done with the first Vollsalve - I'm saying she had trouble KEEPING it, as the delta speed was tremendous.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

Alecsandros wrote :

You don't understand almost anything.

TROLLING is what this individual is doing for years.

I fully agree with those statements.

Bye Antonio

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Alecsandros and Antonio:

Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

You state above that Bismarck was having troubles obtaining a FC solution even when Hood was visible through Bismarck's optical sights, but firing using radar would have made the situation far worse, because the bearing accuracy of radar was far worse than optical bearing accuracy.

Visibility wasn't good, wind was blowing Bismarck's funnel and gun smoke towards the enemy , momentarily ( a few seconds) obscuring the horizon towards the 2 British warships, until the smoke was dissipated and blown away.

I don't say she had trouble OBTAINING the FC solution - that was done with the first Vollsalve - I'm saying she had trouble KEEPING it, as the delta speed was tremendous.

A FC solution was required prior to any salvo.

Perhaps you can show, via photos, the smoke you're referring to?

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

this is the smoke both from funnel and from guns, while Bismarck was firing at PoW retreating (on around the same course as when firing at Hood).....I have added big red arrows to help the poor guys to see something as they look really lost, possibly just a problem with glasses....

nh69729.jpg (64.76 KiB) Viewed 694 times

Bye, Alberto

[HMSVF]

Hello everybody,

of course and Colin McMullen was firing ( please just look at the PoW gunnery plot Bismarck course track ) exactly at a ship ( Bismarck ) that was following the Prinz Eugen ( as showed on her correct track map ) and by Schmitz-Westerholt print ( both there outside looking at this battle ), ... but this is not so important for the above absolute ignorant and incompetent denier, ... unable to use mathematics and geometry as we all know by now, ...

... like it is not so important that two Officers of the Prinz Eugen confirmed the German cruiser map movements and the Bismarck relative position to her, ... plus one Bismarck sailor I have interviewed personally.

One of the 2 Prinz Eugen Officers was outside with his rangefinder on port side firing at the PoW with his 105 mm guns, ... so he knew perfectly where the enemy was, ... what Prinz Eugen was doing and where the Bismarck was in relation to his warship, ... and he wrote it on his report, ... that I have in original of course, ... but this is not so important for the above incompetent denier, ...

The second Prinz Eugen Officer was making ( ordering ) flag signals to the Bismarck from his position on Prinz Eugen, ... so he knew perfectly why and when he made the signal to her for the well known 06:03 Torpedo alarm executing his commander ( Kpt Brinkmann ) orders, ...

The Bismarck sailor was outside on the Bismarck starboard side aft taking cover, ... but he realized everything pretty well, ...

.... but this is not so important for the above " hooligan " living on his fantasy world of imagination and wrong captions, ... absurd maps, ... and loved novels, ...

Good luck for your work, ... I just wait to see it published to take a very good laugh ...

NOTE : I do not like or trust Nazi as well as RN fanaticism ( like the Hooligan/Deniers writing here in ).
That is exactly where your problem is now, because I do not trust 75 years of lies intentionally written to provide a nice " sugar coating " on what really happened.

It is obvious that you would like to push me on the " Nazi " side to take your obvious advantages now that you are cornered with the truth and with your shoulders against the wall, ... but you are simply wrong ( and desperately unfair as usual lately ), ... and this will NOT work.

I will kick the ass of the Nazi's just as I will kick the ass of the Royal Navy " Hooligan " fanatics.

Clear enough ???

Bye Antonio

Look me ole fruit.


It was 75+ years ago and nobody can definitively state who is right and who is wrong. A set of events occurred between two groups and both sides have there interpretation of what occurred. Neither side can claim “truth” as none of us were there writing down second by second timings,none of us had a digital camera and none of us had GPS.The only spreadsheet available was bought from a stationer and digital in 1941 would be using your fingers.

You can produce as many maps as you want but the great (world renowned ) Bill Jurens has pointed out that it’s pointless. You can produce as many excellent spreadsheets as you want, but it’s pointless. Everything is black and white, when in fact war is anything but.

Rather than dish out the insults ( though I love the spelling of loser) accept counter argument. If you are right you have no problem with counter argument as you have definitive,none ambiguous information which in all probability is what occurred. At the moment is blatantly obvious to those outside the clique that this is a Bismarck fanboy v RN argument.

Yet I never seen the RN supporters use the word “coward” or “timid” about a German officer or seaman,nor a German say the the equivalent about the British. Perhaps that’s because they are aware of their nations history and the true nature of war. I have no doubt that the Baron or Edmond Knight would be quite frankly appalled by the language used. But then they saw war and were not peacetime warriors. It’s completely unnecessary .

If you produce the silver bullet,gold bullet or platinum bullet proving that in all probability that the events happened as you say then you will get an applause.I will be at the front offering my congratulations.

[wadinga]

Hello Alecsandros,

Well you are back, aren't you?

DO you understand what Seitenvorzündwerk is , how it works and how it doesn't ?

Otherwise, your opinions are a decent into meaninglessness.

You don't understand almost anything.

Well I understand that it was Thorsten Wahl who explained Seitenvorzündwerk and I understand a naive belief in its Teutonic technological wonderfulness is incompatible with:

What is obvious is that Hood approached at 1200m/min and Bismarck's gun systems were having an awfull time keeping on target (the above system was responsible for automatic gun elevation and depression). After 6:03, all firing was done on radar ranges only, as the chemical smoke generated by PoW precluded adequate sighting and targetting.

I'm saying she had trouble KEEPING it, as the delta speed was tremendous.

In fact the easiest fire control problem is directly towards you, with highest Delta, you only have to guess target speed fairly accurately, extreme inclinations nearer 90 degrees right and left are much harder to estimate. You still have much to learn, young Skywalker.

If you can express a rate of closure then you have a firing solution. With both firer and target changing course continuously, you can't, no matter how wonderful a piece of kit you have. As you once correctly surmised, the rapid shooting was early not later. It would be embarrassing to have been right originally, and then tricked into believing something else by these Milanese hucksters.

Now you are shouting Troll like A & A, because you don't want to admit your own perfectly valid deductions show they are wrong.


Hello Alberto,


06:00 WX PG KTB Wind East force 3. A 28 knot battleship steering SW is leaving her smoke behind. When you were in the Navy, you did go out on the water sometimes didn't you?

Would you like to explain about the railings again WRT this photo.

All the best

wadinga


All the best

wadinga

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

this is the smoke both from funnel and from guns, while Bismarck was firing at PoW retreating (on around the same course as when firing at Hood).....I have added big red arrows to help the poor guys to see something as they look really lost, possibly just a problem with glasses....


nh69729.jpg


Bye, Alberto

So you are now arguing that Bismarck did slow her rate of fire due to visibility problems?

[alecsandros]

Thanks Alberto for the picture.
Duncan, the smoke is mentioned in PEs warlog as hindering visibility.

My opinion (strengthened by a discussion wih Tommy some time ago here on kbismarck) is that Bismarck was initialy loaded with HE shots for cruisers, and the order to switch to AP was given after positive target ID was made. It is unknowable if they actualy switched the shells or , pressed by time, simply shot the first 8 shells with HE.

After that, Hood was at 20km and coming fast, with only 4 guns to bear. It was logical that Hood would turn to unmask her aft guns, and if so, the 30sec time of flight of 380mm shels would be too long to produce effects against the future position of the Hood. That's one of the reasons why Schneider fires metodically, IMHO.

Another one was probably the loss of the main radr set. It could be that only this one had been rigged by Siemens engineers directly into the FC computer. If so, the ranges provided by the other 2 sets, usefull for ranges below 20km, required human transmission (via voicepipes) and manual input into the computers. With a green crew and permanent change of enemy range (and several changes in bearing), it may explain the slow rate of fire.

It is only an idea. Maybe Siemens had the time to rig all 3 radar sets in April...
In any case, the slow firing is matched by Prinz Eugen' slow firing. The cruiser had 2x the rate of fire of Bismarck, and still only consumed 157 shots in 14min.

Prince of Wales shot in the same way as the Bismarck, as Alberto has presented so many times.

My impression , as the years passed , is that this forum remains only a space for playing. No discussion can be held with people that don't understand/can't read...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

HMSVF wrote: "Yet I never seen the RN supporters use the word “coward” or “timid” about a German officer"

Come on, try at least to be objective and do not play victim role.
They lightly used the word "Nazi" against German officers who where wearing an uniform and serving their country, without being Nazi at all, unless proven (while the retreat in front of the enemy is well proven and in military terms has only one definition).

In addition, the RN hooligans have used first the words "idiot", "stupid" and "ignorant" against the ones who were trying to establish the truth about the whole story, without being provoked at all, and now they are cornered without arguments because the timings of NH69731 and of the PG film have been fixed once forever long time ago (2005), despite the obstinate Mr.Wadinga attempts to divert discussion to other photos.

Now the story is clear, in terms of battlemap (with the due tolerances and uncertainties), "regrettable aftermath" (disciplinary actions requested against the 2 officers) and the incontrovertible "cover-up" (or "sugar-coating") in the RN official reports.



Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

I fully agree with Alberto Vituani above post :

Hello everybody,

HMSVF wrote: "Yet I never seen the RN supporters use the word “coward” or “timid” about a German officer"

Come on, try at least to be objective and do not play victim role.

They lightly used the word "Nazi" against German officers who where wearing an uniform and serving their country, without being Nazi at all, unless proven (while the retreat in front of the enemy is well proven and in military terms has only one definition).

In addition, the RN hooligans have used first the words "idiot", "stupid" and "ignorant" against the ones who were trying to establish the truth about the whole story, without being provoked at all, and now they are cornered without arguments because the timings of NH69731 and of the PG film have been fixed once forever long time ago (2005), despite the obstinate Mr.Wadinga attempts to divert discussion to other photos.

Now the story is clear, in terms of battle map (with the due tolerances and uncertainties), "regrettable aftermath" (disciplinary actions requested against the 2 officers ) and the incontrovertible "cover-up" ( or " sugar-coating " ) in the RN official reports.

Bye, Alberto

When cornered by the surfacing truth, ... those really poor persons, ... instead of fairly keep on discussing on the matters, ... intentionally choose to change their loosing strategy and move on the sarcasm, offenses and personal attacks, ... diverging the discussion as much as possible, ... to mud the water and try to put back in discussion everything possible about this battle, ... even if it was well determined and widely agreed before.

The useless trial to put us on the Nazi side of this debate is by far the most unfair and low profile attitude I have ever seen so far in this forum, ... and I am deeply shocked by the fact that persons that I have rated correct persons in the past are not writing their clear disagreement about such an attitude, ... taking a huge distance from them and their actions, ... and are allowing those persons to list them among their supporters.

This attitude is demonstrating the really poor fairness, ... the fact that once they understood to have lost the fair discussion on going, ... due to the evidence surfacing, ... they had the need to change the approach as it shows, ... and restart discussing about everything back from the beginning with the hope to mud so much the water that the forum occasional new readers will be lost and will not understand anymore what is going on.

What a pathetic loosing attitude this is, ... what a poor type of human being we have here in, ... what a shame, ...

Surely here nobody is afraid about anything, and we will turn back on those persons all the offenses that they will write, with the due interest.

As Alberto stated above, now all is clear and the "novel" is dead, ... nothing will be like before and this battle events have been widely analyzed and correctly correlated one to the other, ... including the aftermath, ... a really regrettable one, ... thanking many book authors especially from the United Kingdom, ... with Stephen Roskill above all of them, ... and the truth about all the aspects has surfaced clearly from the official document still available to be read into the archives.

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Alecsandros,

Duncan, the smoke is mentioned in PEs warlog as hindering visibility.

Only when Prinz Eugen turned 90 degrees across Bismarck's bow, as not depicted in either the Gefechtskizze or Antonio's map, but as perfectly shown in the above photo. Jasper complained about the stack gasses only then.

Visibility wasn't good, wind was blowing Bismarck's funnel and gun smoke towards the enemy ,

The film clearly shows Bismarck was leaving funnel smoke and gunsmoke astern because of wind direction and high speed.

Hello A & A ,

Please stop using the forbidden term N*zi in this thread as it will get it locked and that would mean all the evidence disproving your Conspiracy Theory would be hidden and............Doh! That's why you're doing it.


All the best

wadinga

[HMSVF]

Hello everybody,

HMSVF wrote: "Yet I never seen the RN supporters use the word “coward” or “timid” about a German officer"

Come on, try at least to be objective and do not play victim role.
They lightly used the word "Nazi" against German officers who where wearing an uniform and serving their country, without being Nazi at all, unless proven (while the retreat in front of the enemy is well proven and in military terms has only one definition).

In addition, the RN hooligans have used first the words "idiot", "stupid" and "ignorant" against the ones who were trying to establish the truth about the whole story, without being provoked at all, and now they are cornered without arguments because the timings of NH69731 and of the PG film have been fixed once forever long time ago (2005), despite the obstinate Mr.Wadinga attempts to divert discussion to other photos.

Now the story is clear, in terms of battlemap (with the due tolerances and uncertainties), "regrettable aftermath" (disciplinary actions requested against the 2 officers) and the incontrovertible "cover-up" (or "sugar-coating") in the RN official reports.



Bye, Alberto

Have at any point have the hooligans used the word “coward”. Would those who have used such terms have been happy to have used in the presence of their family? In terms of who was a nazi and who wasn’t ...

My understanding of the Kreigsmarine was it probably the least nazi of the 3 services. That doesn’t mean that none were present on Bismarck. Unfortunately that was the governing regime of Germany at the time.

In regards to battle maps etc as I’ve stated before, IMHO given the fact that the battle was 75 years ago and the vast majority of those are now dead, “likely probability” is the best that can be achieved given the limitations and inherent variables that occur in witness statements and information recorded by humans.


Best wishes


HMSVF