Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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dunmunro
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:36 am

Yes, the film and photos don't show much in the way of smoke obscuring Bismarck's forward director tower, but I find it interesting that this smoke is supposed to slow Bismarck's RoF but PoW's smokescreen, fire and funnel smoke supposedly had no effect at all.. :think:

At 3:40 in this film clip we glimpse PoW from PE and smoke is not an issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU76vVM6lWY&t=253s

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:40 am

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Please stop using the forbidden term N*zi in this thread as it will get it locked .... "
:lol: Mr.Wadinga plays "over-politically-correct" now..... :kaput:

He has used the word "nazi" when I had not yet joined the forum : anyone can search for the "forbidden word" nazi in this forum: there are 823 occurrences (among them Mr.Wadinga's ones !) ... :lol: :lol: :lol:



In any case, terms like "idiot", "stupid" and "ignorant" were used first by the hooligans/deniers when left without arguments to counter what Antonio was taking to surface. These are the direct insults we have received by them (plus all the mocking, the irony etc.etc.), without any excuse (and they have not been condemned by the others or banned, unfortunately): now they just get back what they deserve. Patience is OVER.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:32 pm

dunmunro wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:36 am
fire and funnel smoke supposedly had no effect at all.. :think:
when you don't read, nothing has any effect at all.

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wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:43 pm

Hello Alecsandros,

Visibility wasn't good, wind was blowing Bismarck's funnel and gun smoke towards the enemy ,

Rowell in his letter written during recuperation says visibility was "exceptional".

06:00 WX PG KTB Wind East force 3. A 28 knot battleship steering SW is leaving her smoke behind.

Only when Prinz Eugen turned 90 degrees across Bismarck's bow, as not depicted in either the Gefechtskizze or Antonio's map, but as perfectly shown in the above photo. Jasper complained about the stack gasses only then.

The film clearly shows Bismarck was leaving funnel smoke and gunsmoke astern because of wind direction and high speed.
when you don't read, nothing has any effect at all.
"I can read (see) perfectly-Donald Pleasance" :D

Prince of Wales shot in the same way as the Bismarck, as Alberto has presented so many times.

No, Alberto has attempted to misrepresent,through the use of made-up figures in a spreadsheet, that Bismarck shot the same way as Prince of Wales. It's not the same thing at all. I asked you, quite politely IIRC, why you think the PG KTB says Bismarck stopped firing at 06:09?
You didn't think that two years ago:

My best estimate is that the final point of the battle (6:09) is not correct, and the final shots were fired by BS/PE much sooner (6:05-6:06 or so). There is also a probability that German ships opened fire late in the 5:55 minute, with fall of shot form the first salvos being observed around 5:56:20 or so, if not later. Second salvo fall of shot observed as late as 5:57:10... I do NOT think rapid fire was ordered AT ALL on board Bismarck at that time.
and
I know Antonio, I know...
I told you that your explanation is probably the best reconciliation we have of the available data.

However, the photos and film are APPROXIMATELY timed, and are NOT definitive answers to the problems.
As you perceptively realised back then, the ideal conditions for rapid shooting by Bismarck as shown in the film happened much earlier in the engagement, about when M-R recalled Schneider saying Gut! Schnell! not surprisingly. It seems you felt you could not abandon Antonio's timetable altogether, but you observed it was not definitive.

What changed your mind so as to believe everything A & A have fabricated?


Hello Alberto,

when left without arguments to counter what Antonio was taking to surface.

Based on my posts for the last five years I don't believe I have ever been left without arguments. And I've plenty more. :cool:


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:26 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Alberto has attempted to misrepresent,through the use of made-up figures in a spreadsheet, that Bismarck shot the same way as Prince of Wales."
:lol: This would not deserve any answer, because I have explained at length what is the meaning of the table and the assumptions in it. However, as Mr.Wadinga insists to refute it, I will propose the same table again and again, until he can possibly understand it: "repetita juvant" (at least, in most cases).

Mr.Wadinga can try to produce his own "annoying" table (strictly following McMullen methodology http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09guns.htm, as I did), changing the "made-up" :lol: figures (as anybody can verify), but the substance won't change: PoW effective # of shells fired per minute was in line with Bismarck one.

PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg
PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen.jpg (70.88 KiB) Viewed 330 times

This for the very reason (that Mr.Wadinga try to avoid to admit, or is simply unable to understand) that 93 fired shells is a FACT (very inconvenient for his side).

He could not provide any alternative to the table, because any combination of the "made-up" figures will NOT change the conclusion (as someone who has tried already knows very well, proposing 96 as ordered shots number). Only denying 93 will....



Wadinga wrote: "I don't believe I have ever been left without arguments"
:lol: Mr.Wadinga has never been left without his fantasies (or, as Alecsandros wrote, he was intentionally trolling this forum....). :lol:

He has just been able to unsuccessfully try to counter facts with his own speculations, like Bismarck turning away before Hood explosion.... :shock: or Brockman misleading Pound, Alexander and Churchill re. PoW retreat being the "aspects that required explanation" in ADM 205/10 :shock: or S.Roskill "manipulating" the poor L.Kennedy for his own purpose to attack Pound :shock: ..... and the list can be continued..... :stop:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:58 am

wadinga wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:43 pm
Rowell in his letter written during recuperation says visibility was "exceptional".
Rowell was not on board Bismarck or Prinz Eugen.
What changed your mind so as to believe everything A & A have fabricated?
If you read my 3 phases of the battle proposition, you will see how things work.
But reading... is a problem here on this forum.
Reading would be required as well for AVKS... RPC system elevation troubles... and possible integration of only the main radar set into the main FC computer.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:09 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

you wrote :
:lol: Mr.Wadinga has never been left without his fantasies (or, as Alecsandros wrote, he was intentionally trolling this forum....). :lol:

He has just been able to unsuccessfully try to counter facts with his own speculations, like Bismarck turning away before Hood explosion.... :shock: or Brockman misleading Pound, Alexander and Churchill re. PoW retreat being the "aspects that required explanation" in ADM 205/10 :shock: or S.Roskill "manipulating" the poor L.Kennedy for his own purpose to attack Pound :shock: ..... and the list can be continued..... :stop:
Never we had an agreement about a very simple geometrical figure proposed explaining the battle at a given time, ... just sarcasm and trying to ridicule the effort, ... or about a written statement that can be read into an official documents, ... just poor fantasies trying to refute what cannot be refuted any longer.

@ Alecsandros,

you wrote :
But reading ... is a problem here on this forum.
Reference above, ... you just summarized it very well.

It is an intentional problem in this forum as well as it is an intentional problem into the lately surfaced documents.
Those guys still have hard time accepting that it was Pound that wanted a Board of Inquiry for Leach and Wake-Walker.
Those guys still have a problem to read and accept that it was Adm Tovey to falsify the reports with his dispatches.

As you can see, ... two very easy facts to be read, accepted and admitted, ... because they are very easy to be realized by simply reading the documents, ... but still, ... their pathetic " crusader campaign " does not allow them to accept the truth, ... the simple and now irrefutable truth.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:21 am

Hello Alberto,

He could not provide any alternative to the table, because any combination of the "made-up" figures will NOT change the conclusion (as someone who has tried already knows very well, proposing 96 as ordered shots number). Only denying 93 will....
93 is the only non-made-up figure in your Tedious and Annoying Table. There is no actual evidence Bismarck fired for 14 minutes, no evidence she fired 27 salvoes and by your own admission no evidence of 108 ordered shots. What's left? A few invalid values generated from inadequate base data.
I will propose the same table again and again,
Which will only make it more Tedious and Annoying, and further evidence of the degree of misrepresentation you are prepared to use.

Hello Alecsandros,

The Baron could see both British cruisers at 12-15 miles. He was on the Bismarck. Schneider managed to hit Hood despite the insuperable difficulties you have imagined for this stage of the action, compared with the very real difficulties at the end.

Your backtracking on the sensible and logical doubts you expressed before is difficult to understand and genuinely tragic. Antonio and Alberto set out on a scheme to make money and fame/notoriety out of fabricating and publishing a Conspiracy Theory defaming various Royal Navy personnel. AFAICT you are their only believer. Every other poster here has realised the fabrication and distortion they have used as evidence, and when they challenged A & A in the name of fairness and truth have received a barrage of insults for their trouble.


All the best

wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:18 pm

wadinga wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:21 am

The Baron could see both British cruisers at 12-15 miles. He was on the Bismarck. Schneider managed to hit Hood despite the insuperable difficulties you have imagined for this stage of the action, compared with the very real difficulties at the end.
Wadinga, the cruisers were on a different bearing then Hood and Prince of Wales were, and those bearings weren't intermmitently obscured by smoke.

AVKS sheds light on Bismarck's 380mm battery troubles , especialy on her automatic elevation correction problems. This along with the wait for Hood to turn to unmask her aft guns, therefore making the firing solution irrelevant, was the reason why Bismarck fired slowly (it's obvious that she fired MUCH faster during the parallel course phase against Prince of Wales - BUT with REDUCED accuracy, especialy given the ballistics and ranges involved - that shows again lack of trainig, technical problems, and maybe other battle related issues that we don't have documents for). Smoke was just another aspect that hindered the firings. That you don't understand/won't/can't read the documents is entirely your problem. Kind of like the "earth is flat" theory present-day supporters. Look it up, you could find friends.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:43 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "There is no actual evidence Bismarck fired for 14 minutes, no evidence she fired 27 salvoes"
Mr.Wadinga is free to add any value instead of 108 (he was not even able to understand that 27 is a calculated value, not an assumption, (27=108/4) and this alone demonstrates that he is unable of "elementary school calculations", just to return his kind words).

Re. 14 minutes, he should tell us now whether he believes Mr.Dunmunro speculation about Bismarck open fire at 5:53......In this case, it will make the table even more annoying for his agenda (defend Leach at any cost !): :lol:

PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_BS_open_fire_0553.jpg
PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_BS_open_fire_0553.jpg (54.13 KiB) Viewed 229 times

or possibly he will now invent (based on nothing except his denial madness) that Lutjens ordered PG to cease fire at 6:09 while he had already ordered to the flagship (by now closer to the enemy with her 15", as per all maps) to cease fire well before, just to leave some glory to Brinkmann too.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
If there is a chance that the cease fire was not simultaneous (and there is no), then of course PG would have been ordered to cease fire before, being more far from enemy and with the flagship in between. :lol:
6:09 was cease fire for both German ships, as well as 5:.55 was the open fire time for both, as obvious. Unfortunately for Mr.Wadinga the "last photo" shows BS on port side of PG exactly as per Antonio's reconstruction at 6:09:xx......

Game is OVER Mr.Wadinga, please wake up from your dream and face the hard truth OR tell us at what time BS opened fire and at what time she ceased fire showing us your complete reconstruction of the battle. Make us laugh!
Stop trolling this forum with nonsense as done for months, accusing Antonio and me, while enlisting a bunch of ignorant hooligans only to insult and support his (by now ridiculous) denial !



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:34 pm

Hello everybody,

poor guy, ... totally lost on his campaign to try to hide what cannot be hidden anymore.
Laughing.jpg
Laughing.jpg (11.38 KiB) Viewed 209 times
Unable to do mathematics, geometry and to read new available documents, ... desperately hanging on an old incorrect map he is not even able to understand by himself, ... or to a photo caption, ... or to anything possible ... or even not possible, ... just to try to discredit who is only bringing out the truth from the archives.

It is not our fault the irrefutable fact that the Admiralty First Sea Lord Sir. D. Pound wanted a disciplinary action ( Board of Inquiry -> Court Martial ) for 2 Royal Navy Officers, ...

It is not our problem the demonstrated fact that Adm Tovey refused to do it and intentionally altered the report thru his dispatches to " Cover Up " the truth ... enabling their recognition by the King, ... and 75 years of wrong " novels " on books.

From May 2013 he started, ... by own admission above, ... this trolling activity ... intentionally, ... poor guy.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:48 am

Hello Alberto,
Mr.Wadinga is free to add any value instead of 108 (he was not even able to understand that 27 is a calculated value, not an assumption, (27=108/4)
You take an assumed value and divide it by four and that turns it into something which is not an assumed value. Gee, so that's how mathematics works...……….


I'm sorry I missed the part where

that Lutjens ordered PG to cease fire at 6:09

Where exactly is that information?
Unfortunately for Mr.Wadinga the "last photo" shows BS on port side of PG exactly as per Antonio's reconstruction at 6:09:xx......
No, exactly like M-R and Schmalenbach's map. Because they were there and knew what happened. Antonio knows there is a photo showing this.
tell us at what time BS opened fire and at what time she ceased fire
I can't because I don't make up evidence to suit my purposes. The records don't say when these things happened. I am concerned with what really happened, not making up a story to sell a Conspiracy Theory.


BTW I enlist no hooligans, you create them yourselves from interested neutral parties, because they recognise the misrepresentations, distortions, fabricated evidence and insulting behaviour, and choose to resist you. They come from around the world with different nationalities and allegiances. One after another they come and after a few posts it is clear to them that your jihad has no basis in reality.


Hello Alecsandros,

AVKS sheds light on Bismarck's 380mm battery troubles , especialy on her automatic elevation correction problems.
Perhaps you can explain how this gets better when both Bismarck and PoW are turning hard, say around 06:03 and afterwards. I am surprised you know so much about my understanding of FC systems, but clearly your own knowledge is far greater.
(it's obvious that she fired MUCH faster during the parallel course phase against Prince of Wales - BUT with REDUCED accuracy,

What parallel course phase, Antonio says PoW turned away immediately after the first hit? PoW is supposed to have been turning continuously since the first hit at 06:00:50. Please try and stay "on message".


It is good that you now doubt the Baron's version of things. You have invented:
that shows again lack of trainig, technical problems, and maybe other battle related issues that we don't have documents for
which he doesn't mention, still what would he know, I mean, just because he was there, and celebrated success with Schneider? :D

And from Antonio giant Emojis, I preferred the pretty girls. Do you have anything to say about Bismarck's gunnery? If not why post?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:30 am

Hello everybody,

my post is fully in line with this thread.

Why ? Very simple, ... because somebody proposed map is simply impossible with the Bismarck, Prinz Eugen and the British gunnery.

It is enough to known mathematics and geometry, ... some base trigonometry and bearings knowledge, ... but our poor guy does not have them as we saw on the Norfolk thread, ... as it showed.

So why all those absurd trolling activities from such a poorly competent person ?

The reasons are above, ... the useless trial to hide a shameful disciplinary action by the RN Admiralty and the consequent " Cover Up " done by Adm Tovey hiding the truth with his dispatches for more than 75 years.

The poor guy thinks that discrediting the history researchers, ... the official documents surfaced will disappear, ... what a poor guy.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:32 am

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "You take an assumed value and divide it by four and that turns it into something which is not an assumed value. that's how mathematics works...…"
Yes, this is exactly the way it works (having got a master degree in Engineering and studied mathematics for 5 years: what is "poor" Mr.Wadinga qualification in mathematics ? :lol: ) : the only assumption is 108, the other values are calculated and NOT assumptions. Mr.Wadinga has no knowledge of "elementary school calculations" and of mathematics basis in general, this is the reason he was always unable to understand McMullen calculations used in the "annoying table": I suggest him to ask someone to explain it in an easy way, for a total beginner..... :kaput:

He would like to say that 14 is an assumption too, while it the only logical battle duration. Of course, he is UNABLE to provide any alternative time for BS open fire (written in PG KTB as 05:55), for BS cease fire (PG cease fire is written in Jasper GAR as 06:09 but he would like to speculate that BS ceased fire after or before ? Why ? Based on what evidence ? Only in his denial madness...) and mostly for the 108 ordered shots.


Therefore the meaning of his post is : FOG OF WAR prevents to get to any conclusion (and consequently to condemn Leach... :wink: ). Possibly the battle never happened at all. Possibly Bismarck never opened fire at all.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

He has been left alone even by his bunch of ignorant insulting hooligans, after they were rubbished one after the other, some of them fairly recognizing their errors, most of them cowardly disappearing after having made fools of themselves. I have to recognize that he is more resilient and feels no shame in proposing and defending his nonsense: like the 1990 map, copied from an old map, demonstrated wrong by all photographic, official, witnesses and logic evidences. Unfortunately he is totally unable to propose a credible alternative battlemap (he himself recognized that Bismarck could not be on course 270° from 5:55 till 6:00 as per the above wrong map, cornered by McMullen salvo plot showing a range that is constantly reducing at a high rate until at least 6:02). :kaput:



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:31 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:32 am
Hello everybody,


Yes, this is exactly the way it works (having got a master degree in Engineering and studied mathematics for 5 years...
Do you design bridges for a living?

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