Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[Alberto Virtuani]

What is official evidence of Bismarck having ceased fire ?

What a disgusting trolling instead of posting the evidences..... what about "SHUT-UP", poor loosing denier (blabbering in his own language) ?

Patience is OVER with him too.... Che brutta razza di svergognato ! Too timid to propose his opinion but arrogant enough to come in and ask questions / express endless doubts in his "hidden" way.

[Herr Nilsson]

And what is the official evidence that Bismarck didn‘t stop firing. It’s quite simple: you have no evidence.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Q.E.D.
He has no evidence and no courage. Too timid to propose his opinion, only able to ask his questions.... I answer his way now:

We know PG did not cease fire (despite a troll trying to insinuate even this): why should Bismarck have ceased fire ? At what time ? Why ? They are simple questions but this guy is too shy (to use a nice word...) to answer, exposing himself. He just feeds (and uses) the RN hooligans, covering-up their defeat and shame.

[Herr Nilsson]

In my opinion we don’t know very much about PG‘s firing.

[Alberto Virtuani]

And who cares of your baseless opinion ?

[Herr Nilsson]

In my opinion my opinion isn‘t baseless.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Here Paulus Jasper's "opinion" re. your "opinion":

Jasper.jpg (6.31 KiB) Viewed 927 times

[Herr Nilsson]

Well, I‘ve read the same regulations Jasper has read. You too? I wish you a good night.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Well, I have read the secret document that Jasper wrote to Raeder after the mission, have you ?

If you have something to say, please find the courage in yourself, be a man once in your life and tell us what you have in your little brain.

I wish you precisely the same.

[wadinga]

Hello Alecsandros,


You really believe:

I sincerely wish that both of you stop feeding people with free information

Whereas;

Well, I have read the secret document that Jasper wrote to Raeder after the mission, have you ?

Hmmm, Sounds like yet another example of information deliberately kept hidden by A & A so it can be manipulated, like the so-called Silver Bullet. Unlike Dunmunro and Cag and Herr Nilsson and myself and others who have supplied useful information and documents complete in the open spirit of this forum, A & A have consistently edited maps, redacted documents or completely withheld material to further their attempts to defame individuals and present a distorted "new view" revisionist version of the Bismarck Chase.


I've always wondered how Schmundt knew the Gefechtskizze was "useless and worthless", perhaps Jasper was telling tales behind his Commander's back. Something for our German language specialists to look out for and certainly something Mr Rico will want for his archives.

All the best

wadinga

[Algonquin-R17]

Hello Alberto,

I see that Herr Nilsson has asked the question, And what is the official evidence that Bismarck didn‘t stop firing. . When I look at the chart showing the fire action duration for the three ships the two German ships are recorded at 14 minutes and the POW as 8 minutes and 58 seconds. The precision of the POW time implies to me some official documents were used to make that determination. However when I see the two German ships with identical times it seems too much of a coincidence to be accurate. Surely one started sooner than the other and one stopped earlier than the other. If there are official documents that provide for these two times I would appreciate seeing them since these times are subsequently broken down into seconds in column 2 and used to calculate rates of fire. I read your reply to Herr Nilsson but that does not really help me understand. So basically, how does Antonio support the two 14 minute times?

Bob

[Alberto Virtuani]

Algonquin-R17 wrote: " when I see the two German ships with identical times it seems too much of a coincidence to be accurate"

Hi Bob (if I may),
you are right. PoW data is the same used by McMullen (PoW G.O.) in his GAR (http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09guns.htm, please see Enclosure I) and it's extremely precise .
For the German ships the duration of the battle is approximate from PG KTB (http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/pg-ktb.zip):
we know (from pag.30, supported by pag.39 and 44) that both BS and PG opened fire at 5:55 (but we don't know the seconds....) and that cease fire was given to PG at 6:09 (pag.40) (but again we ignore the seconds).
However 14 minutes look a reasonable duration based on the German official documents, and there are neither evidences nor any logical reason supporting any different timing. As well, we know PG never ceased fire (pag.40) and there is no logical reason why Bismarck should have ceased fire (unnoticed by any witness...) during the action.

A slight change of the 14 minutes duration (+/- 30 seconds) will not substantially change anyway the conclusion that PoW effective figures (RoF and # shells/minute) were more than in line with Bismarck ones during the battle.

The true assumption is 108 as ordered shots for Bismarck (for PG the 184 comes from Jasper's GAR, as well as the 157 fired shells, see pag.40-41), but this assumption is only very marginally affecting the "effective" figures for BS, as you can check easily in the table.

PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen_rounded.jpg (56.43 KiB) Viewed 859 times

Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

Algonquin-R17 wrote: " when I see the two German ships with identical times it seems too much of a coincidence to be accurate"

However 14 minutes look a reasonable duration based on the German official documents, and there are neither evidences nor any logical reason supporting any different timing. As well, we know PG never ceased fire (pag.40) and there is no logical reason why Bismarck should have ceased fire (unnoticed by any witness...) during the action.

There is a plethora of witnesses on the RN side who state that Bismarck opened fire at 0553 and there's a thread devoted to that here:

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7736

Brooke in Alarm Starboard, had the best seat in the House, via PoW's after 14in DCT to observe Bismarck and PE's firing after PoW's Y turret went to local control, and Brooke states that Bismarck only fired three more salvos, one salvo possibly being an 8 gun salvo and "... a couple more salvos - probably by radar..."

We have no concrete evidence of how PE's 0555 open fire time correlates to PoW's GAR timing of events via the AFCT salvo chart. Certainly PE's timing for Hood's loss as being 0601:20 should raise some awkward questions by A/A but it doesn't because A/A have established an immutable timing that the evidence must conform to.

There is another thread active to discuss PE''s firing procedures.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

05:53 open fire time proposed by this guy will even worsen Bismarck figures vs PoW ones, as logical, mathematical and already discussed.

Brooke witness, albeit interesting, cannot counter the PG film+photos evidences showing at least 9 to 11 salvos fired after 6:03 by Bismarck.

Absolute timings are TOTALLY irrelevant in the table. 14 minutes is the only credible battle duration as per PG KTB: any other interval MUST be supported by evidences, not only by a denial clear intention.


(There are other threads in "Hypothetical naval scenarios" section for this guy's never-ending speculations. )


Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

05:53 open fire time proposed by this guy will even worsen Bismarck figures vs PoW ones, as logical, mathematical and already discussed.

Brooke witness, albeit interesting, cannot counter the PG film+photos evidences showing at least 9 to 11 salvos fired after 6:03 by Bismarck.

Absolute timings are TOTALLY irrelevant in the table. 14 minutes is the only credible battle duration as per PG KTB: any other interval MUST be supported by evidences, not only by a denial clear intention.


(There are other threads in "Hypothetical naval scenarios" section for this guy's never-ending speculations. )


Bye, Alberto

So there is evidence.

Brooke states 3 or 4 x 4 gun 38cm salvos after 0603. This implies 10 minutes of firing by Bismarck from 0553 to 0603 and 77 to 81 38cm rounds fired over ten minutes or about 20 salvos in 10 minutes or about 2 salvos/minute which is essentially the same as PoW. It implies 40 rounds fired at Hood and a similar number against PoW before she switched to local control.

Again you ignore the evidence in favour of an immutable timeline upon which you a present a selection of film and photos, but which is hotly disputed by even the most experienced naval analyst active in this forum.