Bismarck and her contemporaries

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by lwd » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:52 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:.. An Abrams look like more to a TIger than a Sherman.
Depends on how you look at it. Certainly there's little or no technology that even evolved from a Tiger in an M1.
And has anyone here heard the name Von Braun? Since he died the US was never able to design a rocket as powerfull as the Saturn V, put a man on the moon or, as today, been able to put a man in orbit if not using a russian 1960's capsule and rocket.
You mean the man who helped Goddard's widow win her patent claims vs the US government?
Then there's the fact that the US did indeed put men in orbit after Von Braun's death seems there was this thing called the Space Shuttle. Of course you also have this problem with understanding the diffence between being able to do something and actually doing it.
Something is also true: if it;s flying stars and stripes you know for certain that it is more expensive and with a lot of hours of maintenance (the same "flaws" that US armed forces fans find in German WWII equipment).
Or not. Of course the flaw in the German equipment was not only that it required all that maintenance but that they didn't have a system set up to do it. As for cost again if they could have affored enough it wouldn't have been too much but they couldn't could they? Where the US seems quite capable of it at this point in time. I also suspect that an M1 requires considerably less maintenance than a Tiger especially when you look at their performance in ODS but you wouldn't be interested in that would you?
Karl Heidenreich wrote:
Now if only they could make you a movie where one of those unsinkable German BBs actually stayed afloat eh?
No need. There is already a british made movie in which the lone German ship stands against the might of practically all the Royal Navy Atlantic forces and that is why is the most famous battleship in History. :cool:
Which movie would that be? You sure it's not some fanfic you read somewhere on the next. Certainly it's not a historical film.

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:58 pm

:negative:
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

ede144
Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by ede144 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:27 pm

Lwd
The M1 is a pretty good example. HOw mamy maintenance is related to the gun? And in addition how is this relation at the Leopard II?
Regards
Ede

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by lwd » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:18 pm

ede144 wrote:Lwd
The M1 is a pretty good example.
Of what?
HOw mamy maintenance is related to the gun? And in addition how is this relation at the Leopard II?
Again I'm not sure exactly what you are asking or what the point is.

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:31 am

Again I'm not sure exactly what you are asking or what the point is.
You know, I have always asked myself that same question on your endless, meaningless rethorical breakdown answers...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

ede144
Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by ede144 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:59 pm

@ Lwd
The M1 is a good example of superior American technology. Especially the gun :-)
Regards
Ede

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by lwd » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:07 pm

ede144 wrote:@ Lwd
The M1 is a good example of superior American technology. Especially the gun :-)
Regards
Ede
I assume you are being sarcastic. In any case I'm still not sure how it relates to anything I said.

ede144
Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by ede144 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:17 pm

Lwd
You brought in the M1. And I noted that it is good example of superior American technology. I asked the ques how many maintenance is necessary?
As you didn't provide data , I'm shure you don't have any.
Nevertheless one. ould argue that there is an evolution line from Tiger and Panter to the M1, It's the gun
Regards
Ede

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by lwd » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:35 pm

ede144 wrote:Lwd
You brought in the M1. And I noted that it is good example of superior American technology.
Well you also mentioned it's gun in particular which wasn't developed by the US but by Germany. Then there's the fact that the basic armor design was a British development. So I was uncertain if you were being sarcastic or not?
I asked the ques how many maintenance is necessary?
As you didn't provide data , I'm shure you don't have any.
What do you mean exactly by this? Are you asking what the reliabilty rate is? How often PM has to be pefromed? or how long it takes? or something else? As for being sure about just what data I can come up with, I wouldn't be if I were you.
Nevertheless one. ould argue that there is an evolution line from Tiger and Panter to the M1, It's the gun
One might be able to argue it but it would be pretty hard. Consider that 88's were not really used post war and the fact that the leopard 1 (like the M1) used a 105mm British designed gun and that the Soviets were the ones who really pushed smooth bores in the post war world.

Djoser
Senior Member
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:45 am
Location: Key West Florida USA

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by Djoser » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:33 am

lwd wrote:I also suspect that an M1 requires considerably less maintenance than a Tiger...
The incredible advances in technology alone, incorporated into a truly amazing design several orders of magnitude greater in complexity, would tend to make this questionable. I am betting the M-1 requires a great deal more maintenance than a Tiger ever did. But the way the US Army is set up, such maintenance is not difficult to arrange. The German army was not set up to provide the relatively large amount of maintenance the Tiger required compared to other WW II tanks.

But none of this has much to do with the Bismarck, I fear. :lol:

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:30 am

lwd wrote:I also suspect that an M1 requires considerably less maintenance than a Tiger...
As a matter of fact this statement is the epitome of ridicule itself.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

Djoser
Senior Member
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:45 am
Location: Key West Florida USA

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by Djoser » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:07 am

I don't get it, Karl. I don't think he meant to ridicule, though I could be wrong of course. Maybe he is even correct, if one considers the relative ability of the modern US Army to maintain complex technological weaponry (very good), versus the ability of the already overstrained German maintenance system in dealing with the situation on the Eastern front, especially.

I just want the thread to get back on track...

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:14 pm

Djoser:

Of course you are correct. Another way to view this argumentative falacy: 1944.... 2012.... rest my case.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

ede144
Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by ede144 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:39 pm

Just to finish this sideway. Of course gas amodern tank less maintenance than a WW 2 modell. Otoh I have a Tigerfibel which is the best manual I have ever seen.

User avatar
tommy303
Senior Member
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:19 pm
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Bismarck and her contemporaries

Post by tommy303 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:06 pm

Die Panther-Fibel is also quite good.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.

Post Reply