Smoke on NH 69731

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RNfanDan
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Post by RNfanDan »

paulcadogan wrote: My only comment on the Baron's caption is his reference to burning "wreckage". I doubt that by that time - when PoW was firing her last two salvoes in local control - there was any significant wreckage of Hood left afloat to burn with such intensity.

Paul
I apologize for quoting Paul's months-old post, but his observation, as well as Mr. Dale's below, bears directly on my present comment. I have the original 1980 Battleship Bismarck-a Survivor's Story by the late Baron. In that book, on page 110 (I do not know if this is valid for the later, expanded reprinting, so adjust as required), the Baron writes:

"White stars, probably molten pieces of metal, shot out from the black smoke that followed the flame, and huge fragments, one of which looked like a main turret, whirled through the air like toys. Wreckage of every description littered the water around the Hood, one especially conspicuous piece remaining afire for a long time and giving off clouds of dense, black smoke."

Paul had raised the question of whether this fire is wreckage or oil, and while it may be that Mr. Briggs' report mentions oil as the source of some conflagration, it hardly seems relevant to the issue of identifying the smoke column--whether oil or wreckage, or some combination thereof--as the Baron's observation makes it quite clear that this was an event of notable length in duration, and most importantly, it begins before Hood actually sinks. He may have been thousands of yards distant, but that distance was bridged in real time through his powerful, high-quality optics, effectively placing him much closer to the site of the sinking.
Vic Dale wrote:The black smoke in the centre is PoW turning hard around to port, having just steered out around Hood's smoke shroud.


Uh....no. Not this one. Prince of Wales is clearly as described, on the right, and the white clumps are indeed her 14" shells falling far short of their target. The Baron's photo caption, as well as his passage on page 110 that I quoted above, are the final arbiters on this question of what's burning so dark and black on the left/center of the photo.

For those who seek to diminish the value of eyewitness testimony, it may be only natural to call the Baron's account into question. Sometimes, especially in confusing circumstances and with unreliable witnesses (such as the JFK assassination debacle) being used to establish actual events, the hindsight of history and more reasoned analysis can serve to correct wrongly-held beliefs, or answer previously-unanswered questions. Not this time, I'm afraid.

The Baron's proximity, high-powered, precision optical equipment and, most importantly, his professional training as a gunnery officer collectively and firmly establish the veracity of his observations in a fully logical (and more importantly, truthful) manner. For me, this is incontrovertible, and the photograph solidly supports his words.

Allow me to repeat the key portion of the above quote: "...one especially conspicuous piece remaining afire a long time and giving off clouds of dense, black smoke."

The Baron's description cannot be any clearer. The fact that he mentions the fire burning for a long time, is itself noteworthy, as it obviously registered as something particularly memorable. Just as the magazine explosion aboard Hood struck observers oddly in that it made no tremendous noise--something at least one qualified observer was actually expecting to hear--thus becoming a memorable oddity, so holds for the burning wreckage and/or oil lasting what its observer felt was an unusually long time. Simply put, there is absolutely no reason to doubt his accuracy or truthfulness.

I apologize if this post seems a bit heavy-handed, but there comes a time when challenge simply for the sake of challenge, leads to foolishness. A wheel is a wheel, no matter how much it's reinvented.
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RF
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Re: Smoke on NH 69731

Post by RF »

I think this is fair comment. Of course what was happening with this fire as time went on will become less clear as the Baron was moving further away from this particular point and his attention will be diverted elsewhere.

With reference to JFK assassination there is of course one difference here. There is no shortage of people with a vested interest in massaging the facts and interpretations of what happened.
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paulcadogan
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Re: Smoke on NH 69731

Post by paulcadogan »

Thanks for that quote Dan. Can't believe I forgot that! I'll have to re-read the Baron's description.

If you go through the Board of Enquiry testimony of PoW's witnesses you'll find several other descriptions of burning oil after the sinking. Both Ted Briggs and Bob Tilburn - Hood survivors - saw it too. Naturally they vary somewhat, but the common thread is they all saw oil burning on the sea after Hood sank and the Germans saw it too and caught it in photos.

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 51_POW.htm

Captain Leach's narrative of the battle includes no descriptions of any hard turns to port to take him far to the left of Hood's wreck - he simply "altered course".
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 6-4352.htm

Everyone is free to examine the evidence and decide how they wish to interpret the photographs.

Paul
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Vic Dale
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Re: Smoke on NH 69731

Post by Vic Dale »

Hi to all.

we are getting more heat than light here.

!. PoW hauled out of line to starboard to avoid Hood's wreckage This will have been an immediate reaction, but battlehships do not react as quickly as men and given the speed at which the base of the smoke cloud expanded outwards, (see Barham's funeral pyre photos for a clear idea of the size and scale of what we are talking about) PoW yet to answer her helm will have gone nearly into the smoke as the base came towards her, though we know for sure that she didn't.

In order to turn out and avoid the smoke, Captain Leach will have ordered a turn 90 degrees to his original course, anything short of that will, have been heading towards the smoke. Once clear of the smoke, Leach will have had to turn back, or sail out of the picture to the left. So a turn to port is necessary to follow the logic of the battle.

Leach continued to engage the enemy having taken no hits up to this time, as the ship came round to bring the enemy onto his starboard side to re-engage, PoW was struck on the bridge and then suffered a series of hits which finally convinced Leach to pull out and retire. This decision was made at 0605.

According to Leach's Gunnery Narrative; "....salvoes 17 and 18 were ragged as the ship was under full wheel at this time;......" Salvoes 17 and 18 were fired at 0601:40 and 0601:50, before PoW received the hit on the bridge. The hit on the bridge struck at an angle of 48 degrees from the starboard bow. So PoW was evidently still turning or had settled to her new course for re-engaging. If she had not turned to port after steering out around Hood, she would have taken the shot on the port side.

2. The photo was taken from Prinz Eugen whose guard rails are clearly on view and are equally clearly square-on to the the Hood. Prinz Eugen has not yet turned. This photo MUST therfore have been taken before 0604

3. Captain Leach did not turn away and make smoke until 0605. His smoke screeen was thick and impenetrable and almost hugged the sea, permitting no view from the after main director, just 8 feet above Y turret which could see enough to lay fire.

AT 0605!!!

4. The smoke to the right, if it were a smoke screen is totally ineffective and does not hug the sea at all. There would be no excuse for the after direct not to continue to direct fire.

5. The Baron had been tasked to watch Suffolk so his view of Hood was in very short glimpses only, which he permitted himself from time to time, contrary to his orders. The Baron spent the rest of the war in a PoW camp and will not have seen this photo until some time after the war.

With the optics at his disposal, the Baron will not have seen this view but a picture with a very narrow field of view, which at the ranges we are talking about could place a spot on the base of a ship's funnel. I expect he might have seen a patch or two of oil from Hood blazing, but his view will have been very close-up.

We have before us a panorama covering the whole battle field and such a view is not visible from a gun sight or director. The Baron was sealed in an armoured position, so his view will have been very limited. He will not have seen PoW.

6. All smoke in the photo is rising at about about 70 degrees, yet this is passing across the shot almost horizontally. Is the wind blowing at hurricane force just for this trail of smoke when it is blowing for the rest of the scene at just 7 knots.

7. All of PoW's salvoes were correct for line, so we can gauge Bismarck's and PoW's movements until 0602. The rate of change of bearing and the ranges on which PoW was firing, is a good indicator as to what was actually happening.

If PoW had not turned as I have described after Hood's destruction, Bismarck will have had to acheive 40 knots in order for the target bearing in PoW to have altered so fast to the left.

8. PoW had taken damage to her after funnel which upset the balance of the furnace below and caused her to make a lot of smoke. Where is her smoke trail across the battle field? It should be there, the wind was only blowing at 7 knots.

Vic
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Re: Smoke on NH 69731

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

following Thorsten and Duncan reasoning on this photo, I like to add some more references to continue our analysis and discussions.

Here a distance evaluation map :
Thorsten_Nh69731_distances.jpg
Thorsten_Nh69731_distances.jpg (54.06 KiB) Viewed 1521 times
and an helpful set of the 3 KEY photos of the British warships taken from Prinz Eugen :Nh 69724, Nh 69731 and Nh 69725 were you can compare on same scale the distances.
Those photos were printed on 1941 and were sold on a Prinz Eugen survivor photo album.
PG_sailor_personal_album_01.jpg
PG_sailor_personal_album_01.jpg (60.88 KiB) Viewed 1521 times
I am sure Thorsten can add value with his photo/distance analysis here.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Smoke on NH 69731

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

have a look at pow track chart
Image
ther is a scale past public record office (read 2 inches)
if you apply this two inches = 2000 yard to the track of POW, it appears that POW
on this track
Image

at 06:03 was approximately 1 inch = 1000 yards away from the oilfire
at 06:06 this distance was increased to approximately 2 inches = 2000 yard away from the fire

therfor the relative distance between the Oilfire and POW on NH69731 should be doubled compared to the distance on photo NH69725,

if you try to create a enlarged NH69731that fits this double distance you get an photo completely out of proportion
it appears obvious(to me) that the timeline of NH 69731 have to be shifted nearer to NH69725.
thera are characteristics on both pictures that show indication for maximum time track less then 20 seconds between the photos

NH69731 can be found at the movie too
interestingly movie picture extract and NH69731 had the same size
NH69731 PG movie comparison.png
NH69731 PG movie comparison.png (212.96 KiB) Viewed 1518 times
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Smoke on NH 69731

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Thorsten,

EXCELLENT analysis !!!! :clap:

That in my opinion at first look means that Nh69725 ( ref 21 ) should be moved back from were I wrongly positioned on my 2005 article at 06.07 ... back as you think.

Photo Nh 69731 ( ref 10 )cannot be moved due to the presence of PoW salvo 19th of 2 shells, directly correlated with PoW salvo 20 and 21 and with Prinz Eugen film and battle tracks.

Consequently if your distance and time analysis is correct, it is Nh69725 that must move backwards as you wrote.

Keep on going my friend, ... but be careful not to mix Nh69725 with Nh 69731 ... :wink:
PG_sailor_personal_album_011.jpg
PG_sailor_personal_album_011.jpg (67.01 KiB) Viewed 1509 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Smoke on NH 69731

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

NH69731 can be found at the movie too
interestingly movie picture extract and NH69731 had the same size
typo must mean NH 69725 :whistle:
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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