Bismarck speed during last battle

[alecsandros]

Bismarck, OTOH, had suffered enough flooding forward that her props were losing efficiency, and with her bow buried deeply in the water she would also have increased water resistance. Bismarck was also suffering from direct flooding of machinery spaces, and she would probably have shut down the boiler room which was partially flooded.

However, Bismarck took the lead of the GErman formation after the battle, which meant passing near Prinz EUgen, which was moving at 27kts at the time.
Eye witnesses recalled the rate of closure was very fast - the battleship was probably still doing 30kts.

The speed of Prince of Wales is a tricky matter.

Mc Mullen's letter mentions 27kts speed before the battle. Captain Leech's dispatches mentions 27kts "estimated best speed" immediately after the battle, and "26kts maximum speed" several hours after the battle.

Prinz Eugen's firing solution was calibrated for a target with 25kts speed - and it obtained several hits on PoW.

Shaft RPM indicates other speeds, as well as machinery output (28kts+)

So, what is certain is that no source is in agreement with each other...

[RF]

However, Bismarck took the lead of the GErman formation after the battle, which meant passing near Prinz EUgen, which was moving at 27kts at the time.
Eye witnesses recalled the rate of closure was very fast - the battleship was probably still doing 30kts.

Are you sure this is right?

Lutjens did order Prinz Eugen to drop back behind Bismarck specifically for Brinckmann to report on Bismarck's trailing oil slick. Afterwards the cruiser resumed station ahead of Bismarck, which tactically Lutjens would have done with POW and two county class cruisers trailing him.

I think it unlikely that any German commander would have left the Eugen between Bismarck and POW - it would be an open invitation for the RN ships to creep up on the cruiser and ambush it, while Bismarck wouldn't have a clear field of fire because the cruiser is getting in the way.
Prinz Eugen was certainly ahead of Bismarck at the point they separated company, where Bismarck turned to fire on POW. That was why the pursuing ships failed to notice the separation for some hours after it happened.

[alecsandros]

However, Bismarck took the lead of the GErman formation after the battle, which meant passing near Prinz EUgen, which was moving at 27kts at the time.
Eye witnesses recalled the rate of closure was very fast - the battleship was probably still doing 30kts.

Are you sure this is right?

IIRC, this happened at around 6:20, after PoW retreated.
I;'ll look into it, I may be mistaken...

[alecsandros]

Are you sure this is right?

.

Back,

Here is a link to another part of the forum, were the situation was more amply discussed:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3142&start=390

From Antonios post:

Re: Sunday, May 24th anniversay

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:04 pm
Ciao all,

and here my trip to Kiel to talk with one of the last Prinz Eugen officer still alive is coming on my help.

Not much turning done by Prinz Eugen to avoid Hood shells according to his memories.

In any case comparable to the one's done by Bismarck to avoid PoW salvoes, more intense and accurate scoring 3 hits on Bismarck.

Still the distance gap closure between the 2 german warships allowing Bismarck to gain around 1000 meters, from 2500 meters behind to around 1500 meters, was done within 9 minutes only : from 05.55 until 06.03.

833x9= 7497 meters for Prinz Eugen at 27 knots
941x9=8469 meters for Bismarck at 30,5 knots
Delta is 972 meters,......

PoW speed and bearing to Bismarck connects also Prinz Eugen relative position and speed due to photos and film.
All those parameters must match and the solutions are not many, .... probably only one, ..... just try it.

Bye Antonio

[RF]

This appears to cover the endgame of the DS battle and immediately after it...... however by say 9 AM, over two hours later Prinz Eugen was back in the lead? And remained so until the point of separation?

[dunmunro]

Shaft RPM indicates other speeds, as well as machinery output (28kts+)

So, what is certain is that no source is in agreement with each other...

We don't need any other sources if we have log and shaft RPM data. Any other sources that differ are simply wrong.

[alecsandros]

Shaft RPM indicates other speeds, as well as machinery output (28kts+)

So, what is certain is that no source is in agreement with each other...

We don't need any other sources if we have log and shaft RPM data. Any other sources that differ are simply wrong.

It's difficult to draw such conclusions - the captain knows best what his ships capabilities are, PE's firing solution was dead on target [computing 25kts speed for PoW].

Yes, they could be mistaken, but I don't think dismissing them that easily is the fair thing to do...

[RF]

PE's firing solution was dead on target [computing 25kts speed for PoW].

Note that in the DS battle the PE obtained three hits on POW compared to four obtained by Bismarck. Given that PE has a faster rate of fire and targetted POW ahead of Bismarck the firing solution doesn't seem as impressive as that of its big brother....

[alecsandros]

PE's firing solution was dead on target [computing 25kts speed for PoW].

Note that in the DS battle the PE obtained three hits on POW compared to four obtained by Bismarck. Given that PE has a faster rate of fire and targetted POW ahead of Bismarck the firing solution doesn't seem as impressive as that of its big brother....

That's true,
But again, the 8" gun did not have the ballistics of the 15" gun. What matters most are the straddles, and from what I can remember, PE consistently straddled both Hood and PoW...

[dunmunro]

However, Bismarck took the lead of the GErman formation after the battle, which meant passing near Prinz EUgen, which was moving at 27kts at the time.
Eye witnesses recalled the rate of closure was very fast - the battleship was probably still doing 30kts.

The speed of Prince of Wales is a tricky matter.

Mc Mullen's letter mentions 27kts speed before the battle. Captain Leech's dispatches mentions 27kts "estimated best speed" immediately after the battle, and "26kts maximum speed" several hours after the battle.

Prinz Eugen's firing solution was calibrated for a target with 25kts speed - and it obtained several hits on PoW.

Shaft RPM indicates other speeds, as well as machinery output (28kts+)

So, what is certain is that no source is in agreement with each other...

The reason that we have to rely on the failing memories of elderly participants and difficult to interpret data for Bismarck, to try and guess her speed is that we don't have access to her log and shaft RPM data. We have the log and RPM data for PoW, so we know what her speeds were and what she was capable of on (and by extension, the Hood, since they sailed in company) the morning of May 24 1941.

Are you really trying to argue that PE's FC data is more accurate than PoW's log? Come on...

[alecsandros]

Are you really trying to argue that PE's FC data is more accurate than PoW's log? Come on...

No, of course not.

But I wouldn't pass so easily over the official messages sent by captain LEech that day (mentioning 27kts "best speed" at 8:30 and 26kts "maximum speed" at 12:50)
PE's straddles and repeated hits using a 25kts speed also raises the question if PoW was actualy doing 28kts+ during the time interval when it was targetted by PE.

Yes, the log is very important, but reality is always more complicated, and I would expect the captain to know it better...

[dunmunro]

DoY full power trials:

1 November 1941.

42,970 tons, Sea slight, wind moderate.

28,720 SHP at 153 RPM = 20.6 knots (full power on cruising turbines).
111,200 SHP at 232 RPM = 28.6 knots

From RA Burt, British Battleships 1919-1945, p402.




From 0600 to 0700 24/5/41 PoW recorded an average of 231.8 RPM and 28.4 knots.

[paulcadogan]

PE's straddles and repeated hits using a 25kts speed also raises the question if PoW was actualy doing 28kts+ during the time interval when it was targetted by PE.

PoW was hit during her avoidance of Hood's wreck - she made a hard turn to starboard followed by a hard turn to port - wouldn't that have cut her speed somewhat?

Also, regardless of the speed estimate, corrections would be made based on fall of shot.

[Vic Dale]

It has been reported that Bismarck was capable of 10 to 12 knots during the night of the 26th to 27th. On the morning of the last battle a study of the battle chart shows that the ship was definitely being steered tactically. At 0830 on sighting the enemy she turned immediately to starboard to bring all her guns to bear. Very clearly she was not at the mercy of wind and weather, at that time despite the gale which was still blowing, even though her speed was about half what it could have been. It is reported that Bismarck's speed during the battle was down to about 7 knots, so we might ask what was on Lutjen's mind at this time.

If Bismarck could make 10 to 12 knots and as it seems could choose her course, it begs the question; Why head for the enemy at all? I personally think that heading back out into the Atlantic, was a tactical decision, probably to try and get the ship out of range of British bombers, or find weather in which they would not be able to attack. It would also place her among U-Boats which had been stationed near to where the battle was being fought. The low speed at which Bismarck was fighting, was possibly intended to either make the enemy slow, thus making them easier targets for the U-Boats or force them to keep altering course around her whilst maintaining a high enough speed to keep themselves safe from attack. All the while, more boats would be able to converge and possibly a fan-shot from a single boat might register a serious hit on one of Bismarck's antagonists. In the event, U-Boats were not able to intervene, but one was thought to have been sighted from Norfolk and another picked up three survivors from Bismarck later in the day. So they were in the vicinity. Submarines have never been of much use in fleet actions and they served no purpose in this action.

There is one further possibility to explain the very low speed. Bismarck still carried dark grey camouflage on her bow and stern and large bow waves of dissimilar pattern port and starboard. Perhaps the slow speed combined with the foreshortening effect of the camouflage and the differing bow waves would work to confuse the enemy gunners, trying to visually determine the target's course and speed. It might even cause them to doubt the initial ranges provided by their gunnery radar.

[RF]

Vic,

This is all conjecture and opinion, none of this evidence has been offered by any of the authors who have written on Rheinubung, none of it appears in the SKL records and little by the officer survivors.