Bismarck off Norwegian coast 21 May 1941

[Olaf]

I have a lot of respect for the survivor opinions, but I do know that many times their memories is not precise enough, as I had dozens of examples personally.

I second that from my personal experience... I can hardly remember what paints were used on my first ship in the German Navy... and I left this ship in 1996...)

I think you all would agree that on the photos attached at Gotenhafen on May 18th, 1941 the canvas covering the top flat surfaces is covering a very light colour and it is not Light Grey, as it would not make any common sense.
You can tell me the colour, it cannot be Red, it cannot be Dark Grey like the sloped parts.

Agreed. This means, that they had them already painted yellow IN PREPARATION for Norway. (Or the wanted to prevent seagulls droppings on the fresh grey paint, HA!). The sloped side COULD be red. (At least, Tamiya had the idea of showing model photos on the 1/700 kit box... which... to be honest, means nothing...)

Than the ship arrived into Bergen sailing all the way thru with that turret camo scheme, sloped parts on Dark Grey, the top flat main turret surfaces on a light camo colour for air identification, previously covered into the harbour with the canvas, and according to me it was Yellow.
Of course the ship had the swastika banners painted on bow and stern.

Agreed.

The Prinz Eugen arrrived into Bergen Fjords, and already at Grimstad Fjord they started re-painting off the Baltic camo scheme, but on the main turrets they only painted over the sloped parts with light grey, the top flat surface was left as it was, so still Yellow.
The photo above posted by Olaf were you can also see Bismarck into the Grimstad fjord do show a very light colour still on top of the main turrets, on the other photo the Prinz Eugen sailors are only painting the sloped parts of the main turrets, nobody is painting the flat top surface.
The swastika banners were covered with canvas, and it is proved with photos and films.

BLIMEY! The Grimstad Fjord photo does show the canvas over the swastika... note, how the anchor cables are 'disappearing'...
So... the next in my sequence is actually the departure with this cover removed. (Is there a way to edit own messages...?)

The Prinz Eugen sailed out with Bismarck, they removed the canvas covers from the swastika's and the ship was ready again to sail under the Luftwaffe air coverage with yellow top's.

See above. It's accidently the second photo of my sequence... of course, then, my text about the contradiction to the PG war diary is rubbish...

The job was done and both the swastika banners and the top flat surfaces of the main turrets were painted off ( with a dark grey ) while at sea, the bow anchor chains were blocked with a smaller chain going into the rings of the main chains as you can see on the photo attached by Olaf were you can see the Prinz Eugen forecaste from the top.

That's how my model will be... although it is still tempting to represent it in progress of painting the turret tops RAL 1003 to RAL 7024... I already have the anchor cable lashings...

Now if you can tell me why they painted the flat top surface of the turrets with a much darker colour to remove an air identification colour at sea if it was not there, I can try to follow you, ... but it will be very hard to explain it unless over there as I am saying the colour was light and not a light grey and it was a colour used for the air recognition that started from Gotenhafen protected with canvas as proved with the initial Prinz Eugen photos at Gotenhafen.

Didn't RN ships had darker turret tops? Maybe not, just guestimating...

When Prinz Eugen entered Brest first thing they did was to cover the top of the turrets flat surfaces with a canvas they had,..from Gotenhafen,..guess which colour they had under it,.....

So... you would agree, that we see a cover there... it's really a tricky one... that 'curved' edge... my problem is... why cover it? It's in Luftwaffe air cover. Or to make it less 'stand out' in harbour for RAF bombers?

After having hopefully reached a common agreement on Prinz Eugen top turrets colours evolution,.. we can move to Bismarck,.. that started Op. Rheinubung with that top turret camo scheme showed by Paul on the above attached photo,..... and as of today everybody thinks it was Dark Grey, ..... but we need to know more,.. much more,..

If there is really such a thing like "KM-logic", then it should be easy to draw a line from PG to BS...

BUT...

This

....... so get ready to be surprised, ..... one day,...

frightens me a bit

Anyway... thanks for your input and photos... sometimes, it is easier to 'visualise' such things as photos put into context (although my sequence is faulty) can make it more understandable and in fact, can make it easier to digest your illustrations....

Best ~ Olaf

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Olaf and all,

I have sent you something you can use and post here in, no problems and thanks for doing that ... as I have no link currently to do that easily ... appreciate ...

I think that the survivor memories point raised by Marc is explained and we all agree that although memories are as important as we all know, when there are different versions about it and often saying opposite things than only evidences can try to solve the enigma.

The letters attached say something that photos and war diaries show and explain very differently, and between the2 things, I trust the photos and the written officially reported evidences when available and clearly showing the reality as it was 65 years after.

Than of course we must follow the logic of the events,... as obvious,.. nothing was done without a valid reason for that, especially at sea while sailing.

But now in this Prinz Eugen air recognition colours evolutiion path, .. everything seems to match quite well,..... as Paul said,..the '' puzzle '' seems to be well done now.

So, now you can go back and take a look at my posted Prinz Eugen drawings showing this a year ago, when I first directed Abram Joslin on making the drawings of this ship.

http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470

Last year I did this research with Abram, to make the drawings,.. between the 2 of us,... this year thanking Olaf curiosity for his model we shared and showed the whole story for everybody benefit, supported by photo and even finding some more evidences ( liek the canvas in Brest photos thanking you Olaf ) of this reality already well know,..at least by me and Abram .

About '' KM logic '' ..the answer is YES,..there was a logic,..military logic that you know well,..but on those ships you must trust me,.. when you think you got it by that,.. that is the situation when those ships will always surprise you and things went differently,... this is what I find so attractive about them,.....so mysterious,..

...Bismarck in this case is a clear example,..... so research,... deep research ,..and research more,.. patiently,..... accepting to fail,..and hoping to find new evidences,..

..that is what drove me to make all my published works,.. and by the way,..Marc was right about a correction e told me time ago on Nh 69730 at Denmark Strait, .. on a particular Bismarck course,.... compared to Prinz Eugen,.. one day you will all know more about it, .. Marc knows .. and I take this occasion to tell him ... you were right Marc !

.. now I know the truth and one day I will show it to you .. but this is a different story,.. we will take it aside,..... on her own dedicated post,... you can post your drawing in there Marc if you like it, .. as it is correct .... she was more 180 than 220 .... on NH 69730 ....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=553

... when you do a work,.... even if it is well done,.. there is always a way after to make it better and more precise when you find new material,.. and this is the case.

.. now back on Prinz Eugen top colours,.. and after,... maybe we can play with what we have of Bismarck material, ..and using what we have and what we know now of Prinz Eugen as a good starting base, .. having some more fun,.. with same logic approach,... this is history research,..... lot of fun,....

Are we all ok with Prinz Eugen colours now ??

Ciao Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

just to make your confirmation about the Prinz Eugen a little bit easier, .. you can read also here in the Bismarck reconstructed KTB translated thanking Ulrich ... some entries that should help you all ...

Open the adobe acrobat reader file of BS-KTB at point 2.4.7 here in :

http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/index.html

... just open it from the .zip file ..... or print it and read the following statements :

Date : May 18th, 1941 at time 10.00 Admiral Lutjens discussion point about Op. Rheinubung, at point Nr 7.

'' Camouflage paint pattern remains until further orders follow. For the possibility prolonged presence in Norway ( Trondheim ) keep colourful camouflage paint job ''.

and

Date : May 21st, 1941 at time 11.15

'' From Fleet ( Adm Lujens = Flottenchef ) : During the standing in and lying in the KorsFjord paint over the entire camouflage with outboard ( Hull ) grey ''.

and

Date : May 22nd, 1941 at 13.07

'' Alarm ended. Afterwards, by orders of Fleet ( Adm Lutjens ) the aircaft identification markings on the turrets ( ) and the national emblems ( swastikas ) on the forecastle ( bow ) and quarter ( quarterdeck = stern ) are to be painted over ''.

This message is the same as on Prinz Eugen Kriegstagebuch ( PG-KTB ) obviously as Bismarck KTB was re-constructed afterwards, .... and now the photo evidences are finding written confirmations on the KTB's.

Very important to notice that the Fleet commander ordered both ships to paint over the air identification markings on either the top turrets and on the deck ( swastika banners ).

Now a more direct question could have been asked to Schmalenbach and the Baron with this photos and the KTB printed at hand .... but on the answer herself wriitten by the Baron he himslef always refer to his memories, ... as far as he remembers, or other remembers,.. and back we are to the need of evidences now ... ....

... and please double check that on the Schmalenbach responses ....
...... we already have the proof of evidence of at least 2 wrong anwers out of his memories as well, .......so, .......
...as Bismarck did have the main turrets painted on Dark Grey on May 1941 as showed by colour photos and films... so .......
...... 1 ( I ) point B is a wrong answer by Schmalenbach, .... Bismarck had that colours on her ....
...and he does not even recall the swastikas on 1941 on Prinz Eugen,..
... as at 2( II ) point B you can read about the swastika banners being there and on canvas only from 1943 onwards

... this is why I mainly rely on the evidences I can find now,..

Ciao Antonio

[Olaf]

Hi all ~ PG seems to be done now and I agree, why should BS be any different?

@ Antonio ~ thanks for the additional photos but one of them is already in my previous post, one is showing a similar scene like the one which shows every paint job to be done (I called it the "searchlight photo"...) and the third one shows again the swatiska on the f'c'sle and the BS in the distance still wearing the Baltic camouflage. The dark stern and the false stern wake are more than evident... and I simply don't know how to add this to the sequence of photos... I still cannot find the "Edit" button here...

Should I really post them? They don't add much to the discussion and I believe, PG is done now.

Canvas on arrival at Brest... darn! You knew already? And I thought I discovered something new... (such as going fossil hunting and you think it's a T-Rex but all you find is a chicken's bone...)

So, now you can go back and take a look at my posted Prinz Eugen drawings showing this a year ago, when I first directed Abram Joslin on making the drawings of this ship.

http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470

I agree with them... except for the one showing PG from August 1940 to December 1940.... for various reasons but this would need a new thread

Are we all ok with Prinz Eugen colours now ??

I'm fine with it... at least for Rheinübung...

But I can't resist... to add a bit of confusion...
The Jung/Abendroth/Kelling book states that there was indeed RAL 1003 used as "Persenningfarbe"... for those who are not familiar with German... guess what a "Persenning" is...

Cheers ~ Olaf

[tommy303]

tarpaulin/oilskin?

[paulcadogan]

Well my PE needs some work to bring her to her DS appearance, but my Bismarck needs very little modification, although....

PE didn't have 5.9's...how do you think Bismarck's appeared in the DS? I have mine with dark grey tops but the pictures suggest a light colour...

As for Olaf's "guesstion" I will not attempt...

[Olaf]

Hi all ~ "Guesstion" - HA!

Persenningfarbe:
Persenning = (canvas) cover
Farbe = paint

= Paint for painting canvas

The yellow (RAL 1003) is mentioned several times in the paint regulations and the list of available paints. The yellow was used for life rafts, for some inner surfaces inside the ship and for canvas covers (for which they also had grey (RAL 7012) and brown (RAL 8011). I have no prove that they painted the covers for the turret tops but I think they used it for painting dodgers and life rafts (which, to make things worse, were also grey sometimes...).

Best ~ Olaf

BTW... tarpauling as well, sorry, saw this too late...

[Herr Nilsson]

Hi Antonio,

I see no reason for scratching light grey from the list. Even the purpose of the canvas covering is not clear (at least to me). Maybe there is another possible reason for that. I don't know.

Regarding the eye witness accounts:
I agree. A lot of them are wrong, but a lot of them are right. On the other hand I believe, that a not very often used colour like yellow is much more memorable than the frequently used different shades of grey, but that's just my personal opinion. What makes me really wonder is that we have absolutely no first or at least second hand account of another colour than a grey during the first part of "Rheinübung".
Personally I think it's very problematic to extrapolate any colour from black and white picture.

Regarding the BS and PG KTB's:
I see no reason why a "Fliegersichtzeichen" has to be yellow (or red or blue or any other "colorfull" colour).

Regarding the yellow turret tops at the end of "Rheinübung":
The eye-witness account of Matrosengefreiter Maus: See above. But this time, he is the only survivor who has this memory.
Is the HMS Rodney war diary entry confimed? The last status I know is that we have just an second hand account of someone who read it. AFAIK the entry says also that the turret tops and the !gun shields! were painted yellow. What about the gun shields of Prinz Eugen at Brest? Are they yellow too? And if not, why? If I remember correctly there is no wreck picture with yellow gun shields, isn't it?

Antonio, don't get me wrong, but I'm not convinced.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Olaf,

NO, you discovered the canvas on Prinz Eugen into Brest arrival photos, .. it is your achievement,…. not mine, …. YES, I was sure about the yellow paint on the top turrets, …. but you found that additional evidence.
It is yours ……

You will tell me later about the PG other camo of 1940,.. no problems…. I am open and ready to change if needed, .. and happy to do it in case of new and more precise infos …

Got the canvas tarpaulin with yellow or light grey colour, .. that is ok, .. but I can guarantee you 100 % that under those canvas there was always a colour for air recognition purpose established for each operation, and it was not the standard ship light grey for sure, so you can think about which colour those could have been.

@ Paul,

at Denmark Strait Bismarck surely had the dark grey top turrets either main and secondary,... you can refer my model here :

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

But before, from Gdynia to Bergen and out of Bergen before the painting OFF of the air recognition markings,.. this is all to be demonstrated yet,… with lot of work still to be done, and by the proper persons using correct infos.

About after Denmark Strait, for the final battle than the yellow on May 27th, as I said is almost proved now.

@ Marc

I agree with you about the survivors, many are very reliable, but some are not in words and writings, as I have demonstrated above.

YES, we have no witness accounts, but we have the photos of Prinz Eugen, and maybe one day the ones of Bismarck, when reliable infos will hopefully arise, properly researched and analyzed,.. so lets hope.

Meanwhile we can analyze Prinz Eugen and establish the Op. Rheinubung top turrets used colour, that to me was yellow.
Exactly like Op. Berlin, involving Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on January 1941 under the command of Adm Lutjens and only 4 months earlier than this one doing basically the same mission but with 2 different warships, and Op. Weserubung ( April 1940 ).

For the moment just establish that surely a "Fliegersichtzeichen" ( top turrets air recognition colour marking ) was there during Op. Rheinubung as reported is a very great achievement.

Now we know with good approssimation the Prinz Eugen one, .. and it was yellow,... as it cannot be light grey for obvious reasons, … dark grey and red are out of discussion in this case, ….. because the dark grey was on Prinz Eugen on the full top turrets on May 16th, 1941 ( and I can prove it with a photo from F.O. Busch book of 1943 ), .. and it was over painted with a lighter colour covered with canvas ( visible on photos and it cannot be a light grey ) on the 17 or 18 of May, 1941 for Adm Lutjens readiness review.
It cannot be Red since it is too light on B/W photos, …..so only the yellow is left, ….unless somebody else do have different opinions about which colour that could have been.

So trusting Maus and HMS Rodney war diary, .. we can assess the yellow,.. as the colour used for Op. Rheinubung,….. so this was the colour used on Prinz Eugen on Gdynia as well,. ..the same colour Adm Lutjens used for SH and GU 4 months earlier to do the same mission basically,..succesfully,..we know sailors are superstitious .

Talking about this last point, we have :

Maus reported account that is very precise and explains also why the secondary 150 mm turrets were not done, as it is proven on the wreck as well.
But because of this his account is even more reliable, because it is very precise and provide lots of details, including the colour to be used : the yellow.

Do not underestimate the fact that Maus was a guy supposed to do the job, this is important.
I have met a Tirpitz survivor of A-Anton turret doing same job, and while nobody else from the Tirpitz survivors remembers anything about the Tirpitz top turrets colous,.. I had a nice dinner with this man last year,.. and he told me everything I dreamed about for years in full details, .. because he did the painting job.
His infos were right as without the photos I have seen in private collections ( some in colours ) he was able to tell me the colours and why and were they have been painted all the way thru.
So, now I know that a survivor doing the painting job at sea is really a reliable source, as it is not an easy job and your hands are fully coloured at the end, like your uniform.

Add on top of this HMS Rodney war diary, based on Official British Admiralty inputs, probably from the Swordfish on Adm Tovey request ( he thank them on the London Gazette after in writings for this air recognition job so well done ) due to the HMS Sheffield incident on the area on that moment that required a SURE identification of Bismarck for the action going on, so do not underestimate this military detail, it was not a ‘’gossip ‘’, it was a military information during an action to be engaged against the enemy, with real ship and sailors life involved, ..and it is recorded into official military documents ( we should search into Norfolk, KG V, Dorsetshire etc etc radio received message logbooks as well for additional confirmations, and every remaining doubt will fly away ).
Anybody can do this in UK ??

I still have to find the magazine among the hundreds I have were I have read about the HMs Dorsetshire sailor reporting the Bismarck capsizing showing the yellow tops on main turrets.

Now, 3 different sources saying the same thing,…. German and British, ... and some officially, .. during a naval action going on,…. is more than a suspect,…. to me is something real,… and matches with Prinz Eugen top turrets colous, .. as showed even if on B/W photos.

You know like I do that those top turrets colour infos were GEHEIM ( Secret – Confidential ) informations and were NOT recorded into the ship Kriegstagebuch – KTB ( I confirm about the Tirpitz and some other ships ), but it is a real fact proved by many colour photos and reported accounts.

If you want to be air recognized you do not use the ship base light/medium grey colours to do it,.. and we know which colours the KM selected, .. the Yellow ( Op. Weserubung1, Berlin2, Rheinubung etc etc ) the Red (Op. Weserubung2, Berlin1, etc etc ) the Light Blue ( Op. Cerberus ) and the Dark Grey ( Op. Juno ).

When you want to remove or paint them OFF,.. than you use either the light grey making the turret freshly new painted, or the hull medium grey to cover up, as stated on the Prinz Eugen Kriegstagebuch ( this removes the light and medium grey from the selected air recognition identification colours for Luftwaffe of course, as obvious ).

I have just finished my researches on KM Light Cruisers and destroyers, ...and it was the same for them as well .

It is not a problem if somebody is NOT yet convinced, everybody must keep is own opinion.
I just share mine, and accept the discussion, respectful of everybody else opinion.

Olaf asked me about Prinz Eugen,..and I am glad he is convinced today of what I have researched and found.

When we will have more clear evidences on Bismarck, I am sure there will still be somebody not trusting what will become evident, but I will be more than happy as usual if the majority of the readers and warship lovers will agree with me, the others can just keep their opinions and it is ok.

By the way,.. did you got the Nh 69730 info written above ? You were right,..180,..not 220.....

Ciao Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

Ciao Antonio,

regarding NH69730: As you know I'm always right. LOL. All kidding aside, I just ran over it and haven't taken a closer look.

Back to turret tops: Why has a "Fliegersichtzeichen" to be colourfull at all? I see absolutely no need for that. (By the way there is an article of Mr. Gally were he states that the dark grey turret tops were the "Fliegersichtzeichen" on Bismarck until May 22th.)

Supposing that you are right and it has to be colorfull to be recognized. Why yellow and why not light blue?

Regarding Maus and yellow turret tops on BS:

On the one hand Maus says that a second funnel was built on Sunday noon (May 25th). I think we all agree the purpose was not to be recognized by enemy aircrafts or ships at first sight. On the other hand he says they painted the turret tops yellow the next morning (May 26th). Why there is another order to paint the turret tops yellow almost one day before reaching the range of german aircover? As you stated above yellow is a color to be recognized!
The entry in Rodney's war diary is stil not confirmed and it is false regarding the gun shield color.
You say there is maybe another british eye-witness who saw yellow turret tops. What about Joe Brooks of HMS Dorsetshire? He was an eye-witness too and made a painting of Bismarck capsizing. Without yellow turret tops.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Marc,

That is what I thought as well,.….. you are right most of the times,…

The "Fliegersichtzeichen" was supposed to be a colour very well visible painted on top of the main gun turrets.

Kriegsmarine high command decided this on board of Admiral Hipper on early 1940 after Luftwaffe sunk 2 German destroyers ( Z1 and Z3 ).

I have a lot of respect and personal admiration for Mr. Hans Gally, and I thank you for giving me a chance to make it public, his drawings are the best around about Bismarck and Tirpitz.
I hope to have soon a chance to know him personally too.
I do not know what drove him to state what you report, but I am sure that after some talking with him his opinion will be more precise.

Current Prinz Eugen top turret and Bismarck photo analysis drive me to make a different statement and you know that I am going to deeply research on this as I did on everything I have worked on before about KM warships.

The colours Kriegsmarine selected were included into the official KM RAL colours.
For the various operations they changed, some times Yellow, sometimes Red, one time Light Blue, sometimes Dark Grey.

The deep study I have conducted of the 10 major KM warships plus light cruisers and destroyers drive me to reduce to those 4 colours currently the selected ones for top turrets during the war time, but I will be not surprised to find out more in the future.

As of today it seems that the selected colour for Operation Rheinubung was the yellow.

I think that the trick of the second funnel already used by Graf Spee was just to confuse the enemy air recognition when they were still afraid to be discovered, on May 25.

By the morning of May 26 they were more sure to make it so that is why approaching now the friendly waters and their own Luftwaffe airplanes hopefully very soon, they painted on the air recognition marks, so both the swastikas ( still visible today as the wreck shows ) and the top turrets ( successfully only the main ones that nobody as seen as of today ).

The fact that the secondary are still dark grey is explained by Maus himself much earlier than Ballard discovered the ship wreck.
Current Bismarck visitors just see what Maus correctly reported 67 year ago when asked., and his memories were very fresh.

Have you ever taken a good look at any Bismarck photo available during Operation Rheinubung start and at Grimstad Fjord ??

I just ask.

You know that photos talk,… just think about Nh 69730,…and for how many years that photo was under estimated while she was having the truth on her,…. showing the Prinz Eugen wake…and we must thank Tommy303 for that if I recall correctly,.. just like the depth charges on Nh 69722 I have discovered being used during the battle.

Before those analysis everybody was only repeating what was previously believed and stated, what was always written by somebody people believed knew the truth ( I can make dozens of examples on photos and drawings ), repeated informations by persons without skill, poorly researched.

Sometimes the truth is under our eyes,.. we are just not able to see it,… until somebody shows you a small detail,….. and with competences and knowledge,… and lot of hard work,.... demonstrate you the opposite.

Rodney radio logbook and Dorsetshire sailors report is something that needs to be researched more, but without the British resident friends it is not possible by me now, so we must wait a bit, when I will go to London on research of new infos for Tirpitz and Bismarck.

Meanwhile I am not loosing my time,..... you know I love to surprise the readers,.. so get ready,..... it will take time,.. but maybe it will be a big one, ..

Ciao Antonio