Website 10th celebration - Bismarck May 18-21, 1941

[RNfanDan]

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

many thanks Dan,.....

here following probably the final step forward on this subject ......

Thanking some German friends, namely Andreas, Marc and Olaf, I do have now the full version of the document released on April 21, 1941 in order to provide some dispositions for Operation Rheinubung to the German ships involved and to the Luftflotte providing the air coverage.

The document we are referring to is the : Kriegsmarine Flottencommando - Gkdos 90-41 released on April 21st, 1941.

It is made of 4 pages, from reference A till reference E.

On page 3 at reference E point 2 you can read in German language :

'' Turmdecken im bereich eigene kampfluftwaffe leuchtend gelb, ausserhalb dieses bereiches grau.
Gleiches gilt fur auf bug und heck aufgemalte hakenkreuzflaggen ''.

Translated it says :

'' Top turrets inside our own Luftwaffe air coverage range will be bright YELLOW, outside this area they will be GREY.
The same disposition applies for the swastika flags ( hakenkreuzflaggen ) painted on the bow and on the stern ''.

Now we have an Official Kriegsmarine Flottencommando document providing us the colour selected for Operation Rheinubung.
Exactly as I was evaluating from the available material it was the YELLOW as Matrose Maus clearly told us, no more doubts on this.

It applies to Bismarck and Prinz Eugen and I imagine to the destroyers too providing clear dispositions on the area were they must have the Fliegersichtzeichen ON ( Air recognition colour ) painted on the top turrets and the swastika banners visible, and when they had to paint them OFF with grey paint.

Now you can correlate this new finding with the existing evidences and witness reports all the way thru Operation Rheinubung.

To me the scenario is as clear as I never dreamed it could become, and now it is Officially proven too with this Kriegsmarine Flottencommando April 1941 document.

It is not a surprise to me, as it follows Kriegsmarine logic on same subject on many warships on several other operations.

Bismarck and Prinz Eugen did have the Yellow top turrets from Gotenhafen till Bergen, under Luftwaffe air coverage range sailing away from Norway till May 22nd at 13.07.
They had the same approaching France too since they were coming back under the Luftwaffe air coverage range, just as clearly ordered with a written disposition for the Operation Rheinubung.

Now Matrose Maus witness report, HMS Rodney radio logbook, as well as HMS Dorsetshire sailor reports do have a solid base of explanation.

My re-construction camouflage drawings with the air recognition markings for both Prinz Eugen and Bismarck seems to be correct as well as my photo interpretations above on both ships.

Ciao Antonio

[VeenenbergR]

Antonio,

Congratulations on your keen observations and interpretations on camouflage and painting of the Bismarck. I always painted my models with 4+6 turret tops dark yellow and barrels dark grey. So was Bismarck in her last brave and galant fight on this planet. So she was sunk and remembered forever as the most popular, admired and well-known battleship of all time. At least in Europe. Her 2100 killed members formed part of 170.000 killed members of the German Kriegsmarine. An enormous amount of casualties. I think that of any Navy in WWII the German took the most casualties if looked at the KIA. This number is according to Rüdiger Overmans, the leading authority on German war casualties at this moment in the world. Germany lost 5,250.000 soldiers killed or died because of WWII. About 1,6 million died as POW. Many (unknown how many) were shot at the spot when surrendering. The wrath of the victorious Allies meant death for many, so very professional trained, soldiers, which simply were at the mercy of an overwhelming and victorious enemy force.
This German ordeal is unparralllelled by any nation. Bismarck was only a tiny "drop" in the ocean of the maelstrom of destruction.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

thanks VeenenbergR for your compliments on my work on Bismarck.

Yes, I see and well know your numbers and they are impressive as a war is really a human tragedy for everybody and especially for the loosers.

Going back to Bismarck, now we know that our thougths about the yellow top turrets has been right all along, now it si not an opinion anymore, it is a proven fact.

More, we know that not only she had them on the last battle, but also during her initial operation movements with Prinz Eugen from Poland to Norway.

It is very rare to find such an official documentation providing such a confirmation so much time after the events, and for such an important ship well researched and with so many books already printed on her.

But this is what came out, with my great surprise too, after 2 years of deep study on photos, ...and you can imagine how happy I am about it.

Those ships will always surprise us, .... no matter what, ..... but if you do a good history research with competences, ... often are very positive surprises.....

Ciao Antonio

[lwd]

According to the wiki site at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
naval Killed/missing were as follows:
Germany 138,000
Japan 414,900
USN, CG, & merchant marine 74,000 some marines should also probably be included.(total marine 24,511 killed or missing).
they didn't breakdown the British or Soviet losses by service. Looking at the overall British losses if it's porportional to US losses then their naval losses were likely approximately half way between those of the US and those of Germany.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

hera an useful link were you can see the original portion of the document we are talking about.

As you can read with your eyes, 67 years after it is now official that Operation Rheinubung Fliegersichtzeichen colour was bright YELLOW .... on RAL 1003.

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... 6.html#new


Ciao Antonio

[RNfanDan]

I'd like to ask about a couple fine detail issues for you, Mr. Bonomi:

In several views of both PE and BS with various changes to the paint on turret tops, it is unclear whether or not Yellow was applied to the tops of the rangefinder covers on those turrets which featured them--on both ships.

For example, in your illustration of BS colors at Gdynia (05 May AH inspection), the rectangular flat area of the turret roof is yellow, while the slopes and rangefinder housings are all dark grey.

Looking at your numerous photographs, especially that of two PE crewmen applying paint with their backs to the camera, the fresh-painted area has not yet reached the aft border of the top flat rectangle yet--they would have reached this a few minutes after the photo was taken, so it is unclear whether they diverted to the rangefinder housings.

As these housings were slightly below the level of the turret roof on each of the main turrets (on both ships) --technically not part of the turret roof, itself-- would they have bothered to paint them into Yellow? Also, this question applies to the P1 and S1 secondary turrets of BS, as well (except these appear to be more flush-topped than those on the main turrets).

It is a hair-splitting question I realize, but because it appears in two different configurations in your pictograms, I wondered if you feel as I do, that the rangefinders were not painted in yellow top panels, especially in doing so the Yellow pattern would no longer be uniformly rectangular on all four turrets of each ship? How strictly defined was the term "turret tops" in executing the various color applications?

Thank you again for your thorough research!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Dan and all,

WHOW !

Dan, congratulations to your very acute observations ,….. my compliments .

You have understood perfectly the colouring process as I see and caught a key element of difference between Bismarck and Prinz Eugen , so here your well deserved answers.

As I am sure you have clearly understood Bismarck and Prinz Eugen commanders executed differently the received orders.

Prinz Eugen :

No rangefinder hood top side yellow applied at any time, so no need to cover it with grey after.
Very simply the rangefinder hoods were initially dark grey overall including the top flat surfaces.
When they repainted the dark grey turret sloped part sides they coloured light grey entirely the rangefinder hoods as well, including the top flat part.
So the yellow ON and grey OFF was painted only on the main turret top flat surfaces.
No yellow on main gun barrel end, they were initially with some dark stripes and after painted light grey.
They kept them elevated on B and C turrets to enable A and D turret flat surface visibility from the air.

A very simple and elementary execution of received orders for the main turret tops ' fliegersichtzeichen', only the top 4 rectangular flat surfaces involved .

Bismarck :

During the initial period with dark grey sloped sides, the main gun end barrels were yellow too, the 4 rectangular flat top turrets were yellow for sure, like the 4 main gun barrel ends.
No photo evidence so far of the top of the rangefinder hood being yellow while the main turrets rangefinder sides were dark grey for sure.
The 150 mm secondary turrets were yellow only on the top and not on the sloped sides.

In my personal opinion both the top area of the main turret rangedfinder housing of B, C and D ( A turret does not have those ) plus the S1 and P1 secondary rangefinder tops were probably painted yellow too, because it was like this immediately after when they removed the dark grey sides ( my previous example on Bismarck does not show this yet on drawings as you have noticed correctly . It was consistent with the Prinz Eugen solution, but I see now you are a very good investigator ,…. my compliments ... and this is why I gave you my latest thoughts .... ).

After, when they removed the dark grey main turret sloped sides painting them light grey we do have photo evidences showing that the main turrets rangefinder B, C and D turrets plus S1 and P1 secondary rangefinder tops were painted yellow initially and after grey, so surely used as air recognition ''Fliegersichtzeichen'' coloured areas.

So it is now very easy to assume it was like this also before, with the dark grey main turret sides too.

As you can easily realize this is a different solution on Bismarck compared to Prinz Eugen main turrets, a lot more complicated, and kept me thinking for quite a while, like the main gun barrel ends.

While Prinz Eugen only managed the 4 rectangular flat top main turret surfaces, Bismarck painters managed the 4 rectangualr main turret tops, plus their 6 rangefinder hoods flat tops, plus the 4 main gun barrels end of B and C and finally plus the 6 by 150 mm secondary turrets including their 4 rangefinder hoods too ......

We do know now that all the 6 secondary turrets were only temporarily covered with canvas in Grimstad Fjord, and a good quality photo will show that they are still like this as Bismarck is leaving Bergen Fjords area sailing into HjelteFjord on the very famous photo we know.

Than we can notice on same and subsequent photos that the main gun barrels of B and C turrets are now completely dark …….. and also A and D main gun barrels seems to have being repainted with a darker grey too,….. so different than initially on 2 tones grey into Grimstad Fjord,……

Probably they did not want to manage anymore the main gun barrels at sea with the Yellow ON and OFF and painted the gun barrels with the same colour in GrimstadFjord before leaving.

Hope my explanation is clear enough, ......

Ciao Antonio

[RNfanDan]

Thank you for your thoughts on this, as I said it is a minute detail, but one which can make a difference to any model's appearance for a builder wishing to portray the ships during Rheinübüng. Considering that the topic of yellow turret tops has been a controversy of minor proportion for some time now, it was a detail point I wanted to clarify.

I am without means of original research, but have been dealing for more than a year with issues relevant to a British battlecruiser, studying every photograph I can find to help determine changes that were made just before the war began. I am used to "reading" those photographs, but I would much rather be able to travel abroad to locate and review original material. Unfortunately, this is not possible for me and even after careful inquiry, I am still unable to resolve the issue beyond about 75% completeness.

Because of this, I especially appreciate the effort it takes to put together the kind of information you have gathered and verified so well for the members of this site.

Dan

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Dan and all,

YES, I fully agree.

You are right, being a modeler myself I do know how important those details are and what is the need to have a very precise answer for any of those once you want to complete your model as precise and detailed as you can.

I see you are used in certain ways to do photo analysis and history research yourself and now is more logic to me why you caught all those aspects immediately .

I know the feeling of wanting to do more and travel to find correct material, some time is frustrating also not to know the original language ( my difficulties with the German language as an example ), but with good helps and friends sometimes you can fill it up and still do a good job.

I wish you the best for your RN battlecruiser research,.. and by the way, ... tell us the name and the period ,.. you never know,.. maybe we can help .... but I think I know which one it is ..... one I am as well very particularly related too,..... a ship in my heart ...... I have already made 2 models on scale 1/700 of her, .. and soon I will make a 1/350 too by Trumpeter ... am I right .............

Thanks again for the very nice compliments and Ciao. Antonio

[Jon Ryckert]

Antonio,
It's been awhile since I have read this topic and I need to read it again in greater detail but I do have a question for you regarding the secondary gun turrets. Do you still believe that the Bismarck had gray or yellow canvas covering the recognition colors on the secondary turrets at Grimstadt? I just got the 1/200 Bismarck and i think that protraying the ship like that with the yellow main guns end sections on B&C turrtes will make the ship really come to life. Thank you for your time, Jon

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@Jon,

YES, my re-construction of the YELLOW Fliegersichtzeichen ( air recognition scheme ) evolution on both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen did not change recently.

I still beleive on what you can read on this post, so the Bismarck secondary 150 mm turrets were painted with YELLOW according to received orders and only covered with a canvas/tarpaulin ( I think this was grey ) while in Grimstad Fjord during the stay there.

Once out in the ocean, on May 22nd 1941 at 13.07 there was the order received from Flottenchef ( Adm Lutjens ) to paint the air recognition OFF with grey paint, and that was the moment the yellow disappeared from them.

I have never mentioned any tarpaulin with YELLOW colour ( or any other colour ) on any KM warship anytime, ... since the canvas/tarpaulin was used ONLY to cover the top turret identification colours, ... and not to colour them, ...

Can you imagine on the open ocean a warship with some canvas/tarpaulin flying on top of her main and secondary turrets ......

Hope everything is clear to you now ..otherwise just let me know ...

Bye Antonio

[Jon Ryckert]

Thank you Antonnio. I have the new 1/200 kit from Trumpeter and I think what you have concluded in regards to the air recognition color would make the kit look more interesting. Now I just need to make up my mind if I want to protray the ship at Grimstadt or should if i should do the 5th of May with swastika and yellow turret tops and yellow ends of the barrels of turrets B & C? Decisions, decesions. Thanks again.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Jon,

my pleasure to have helped you obtaining the correct info needed to make you choiche .... enjoy modeling your Bismarck now ...

Bye Antonio

[fabien l]

Hi Antonio!
I read very carefully all your wonderful job.
I have made a model kit of Bismarck Heller 1/400 with yellow top main turrets and during an exposition a very old woman came to me and ask me why this yellow color. I answer it was certainly for aerial reco. And how surprise I was, when she said to me ; "Oh dear ! It remember me the yellow cover of many german vehicules during French exode in 1940 ! They had the same yellow color !!!
So I am now certain you are right in your explanations !
Many thanks to you.
Fabien from France.