Reverse into Bay of Biscay?

[RF]

Moreover the logistics to do so were very difficult - not least in communications as the U-boats operated on different radio codes and communication networks to the KM surface ships....

[Vic Dale]

HI Ede.

If you check Operation Berlin - Lutjens' Operation in the Atlantic with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau - you will see that the Fleet Commander was able to direct U-Boats onto convoys his aircraft had spotted. There was actually very good cooperation and communication between the surface fleet and the U-Boats. Lutjens asked Doenitz to set up patrol lines of U-Boats and they were set up. Although the U-Boats used their own code system for weather reports and sightings, there was every possible means of communication between surface ships and U-Boats.

Two U-Boat patrol lines were set up with a view to drawing Tovey's ships over them and they did get into position. In the event they were not used.

[RF]

The process of communication does take time and does make quick and immediate blows difficult. The ideal for Lutjens would be for the U-boats to have sunk the escorting battleship - leaving Lutjens force to attack the convoy and the U-boats to pick off the fleeing merchantmen that escaped Lutjens as the convoy scattered. But none of this came to fruition.

Co-operation with U-boats did pose risks which the Germans weren't aware of, as Captain Rogge in Atlantis was to later discover.

[Vic Dale]

I don't think that U-Boats would be able to operate directly with the battle squadron due to the speed differential, which always proved problematic in the Grand Feet. Even with the development of the K-Boats, 30 knots steam driven submarines, they proved more of a hindrance than a help, when trying to operate with the fleet.

If a convoy with battleship escort was spotted, Bismarck would immediately engage the battleship. There would be no time for U-Boats to get involved even if they could get into position and there would always be the possibility of Bismarck or PG taking the strike. I don't believe U-Boats attacking a convoy would have the luxury of being able to identify and select their target in quite the way a surface ship could. The convoy would be moving at 8 knots and the boat could only make 7 when submerged.

[RF]

The problems with Bismarck engaging a convoy escorting battleship is firstly the risk of battle damage to Bismarck, secondly at the same time the risk of destroyer torpedo attack on Bismarck while so engaged, thirdly the merchant ships do not scatter but are shepherded in the lee of that escorting battleship. It does not offer prospects for a rapid success....

U-boat attacks on a convoy escorting battleship would have to take place at night, running on the surface. If the battleship is eliminated then Bismarck can attack in the morning - the remaining convoy escorts would have to sacrifice themselves whilst the merchantmen scatter, hence the need for a ring of surfaced U-boats to go after them.
The only alternative I can see to this is a carrier supporting Bismarck, whose planes could be directed to attack the escorting battleship.

As you say the speed differential and the time needed to organise attack makes Bismarck/submarine co-operation difficult - but with proper strategic planning and organisation the KM could have seriously attemted it. Such organisational logistics never existed....

[Ray MacDonald]

Dear Sirs,
It appears to me that Bismarck could have been saved by using a set of drogues to counteract the turning moment caused by the jammed rudder(s).
A suitable drogue could have been arranged by hanging the ships anchors from the widest point of the ship's hull on the opposite side from the jammed rudder.
The anchors would have to be released with their chains which could have been attached to one of the side gun turrets to support the drag loads.
It is probable that three anchors would generate sufficient drag to counteract the jammed rudder. Probably enough to overcompensate the rudder action in which case the ship could have been made maneuverable either to port or starboard by using the propellers.
The ship would then have been able to use the full thrust of the propellers and could probably have achieved 20 knots at least.
Other writers have criticized the seamanship of the Bismark officers without proposing alternative solutions. I would appreciate seeing a critique of my proposed solution.
Ray MacDonald

[RF]

Would there not be a problem in doing this with the rough sea conditions? The fleet engineers did consider the use of a hangar door as an auxiliary rudder but any moves of this nature would have to be done in daylight?

Logically the actions you suggest also takes time to organise, particulary given the fatigued state of the officers and crew.

I think something like what you suggest would have been attempted on the 27 May had Rodney and KGV not shown up to finish Bismarck off.

[Dave Saxton]

Accoding to the Baron the seas were more than just rough. He mentions that the storm was making things diffucult even onboard a 50,000 ton battleship, with a significant pitch and roll, and with the bow yawing voilently back and forth through an 80* arc by the wind and seas. The visiblity amid the driving rain was reduced to less than 2 1/2 miles. Moreover, Bismarck was forced to fight off torpedo attacks by enemy destroyers through out the night. There was no opprotunity to attempt such measures.

[wadinga]

Hello Ray - McDonald,

Oddly enough precisely the same impractical suggestion involving transporting Bismarck's massive anchors and chains halfway down the ship's length was suggested in 2012 on page 3 of this very thread by another Ray, Ray Mc....Lain.

All the arguments that applied then apply now. Such a thing could be achieved alongside a quay with high capacity cranes, but not in the wild Atlantic using just human manpower. Also given the direct thrust of Bismarck's prop against the remaining rudder there is little likelyhood any such drag would have the turning force to give any control.

Bismarck was doomed, and no force in the universe could save her.

All the best

wadinga

[alecsandros]

Bismarck was doomed, and no force in the universe could save her.

... Teleportation... ?

[RF]

Bismarck was doomed, and no force in the universe could save her.
wadinga

Well, in that case if Bismarck can't get home then threre's hardly any point in the RN putting so much effort into the final destruction of the ship.....

I think that Bismarck, given time and with shore assistance and no hostile action on the part of the British would have got home.That is why the RN piled it in to finish the job.