Bismarck Equipped with ME 109 Fighters ?

[30knots]

Hi All,

My topic for discussion is:

The Bismarck was equipped with 4 Arado Ar 196 seaplanes. My understanding is these were for aerial reconnaissance and were not used at all during the ships lifetime (apart from trials).

Why the need for 4 Arados ? Why not equip the ship with 2 Arados and 2 Messerschmitt Bf 109’s ? (I know, wait for it, wait for it), assuming the catapult and hangers were designed for it in the first place.

The idea being that as the Messerschmitt’s couldn’t land on water; they would be launched as ‘sacrificial’ aircraft if under serious air attack. They certainly had more firepower (20mm cannon in some variants) and speed than an Arado. The pilot(s) would simply bale out once his job was done as far as possible (whether with complete, partial or no success against the attacking enemy aircraft).

Is this a viable topic for discussion, or have I just gone loopy ?

Thanks for any replies.

[Bgile]

The British did something similar with the Hurricane on modified merchant ships. Unfortunately the Luftwaffe didn't play well with the German navy.

[lwd]

Are one or two single use fighters likely to be of that much use to Bismarck? The British merchants were probably only going to get attacked once in a voyage by a German plane and in many cases the Hurricane would be in range of a shore base. It made sense in the latter case but I'm not sure it does in the former. Also not sure that the catapults can throw the 109's fast enough for them to get in the air.

[30knots]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Also not sure that the catapults can throw the 109's fast enough for them to get in the air.

Why not equip the ship with 2 Arados and 2 Messerschmitt Bf 109’s ? (I know, wait for it, wait for it), assuming the catapult and hangers were designed for it in the first place.

[30knots]

OK

Since the 4 Arados were never used (apart from trials), lets equip the Bismarck with 4 'expendable' Messerschmitt Bf 109's.

I'm sure that would make a difference if the ship was under attack from the air, especially historically speaking.

[Bgile]

OK

Since the 4 Arados were never used (apart from trials), lets equip the Bismarck with 4 'expendable' Messerschmitt Bf 109's.

I'm sure that would make a difference if the ship was under attack from the air, especially historically speaking.

It might make some difference, but only one could be launched against a given attack, since there was only one catapault. Of course a PoW shell made that one inoperative in the actual event. Heaven only knows why it took the Germans so long to discover that fact. I still think someone failed to do their job or the ship organization was flawed. I'd think that when a shell hit that close to it, it would have been given a thorough test.

The Arados were expected to be used to find British convoys.

[30knots]

Hi Bgile,

It might make some difference, but only one could be launched against a given attack, since there was only one catapault.

What about launching 1 + 1 + 1 +1 from the operative catapult ?

[30knots]

With respect, i see you are assuming Denmark Strait encounter.

Of course a PoW shell made that one inoperative in the actual event.

Later in the events, only in my opinion, i can see a difference to launching 2 against the first attack, and another 2 against the second.

[tommy303]

Why bother with a 109? The Arado 196 has a useful speed advantage over the Swordfish and Albacore torpedo bombers, a lower stall speed than the 109, so that it can actually get to nearly as low a speed as the biplanes it would be after, has the advantage of a rear gunner with an MG 15. In addtion, fixed forward armament was a respectable two MG/FF 2cm cannons, and a fixed 7.92mm MG17. Above all, it would be recoverable of the weather permitted.

[lwd]

Another problem with the Me-109 is you don't want to launch it until you are sure their is a raid inbound. By then it could well be too late for it to do anything.

[Bgile]

Why bother with a 109? The Arado 196 has a useful speed advantage over the Swordfish and Albacore torpedo bombers, a lower stall speed than the 109, so that it can actually get to nearly as low a speed as the biplanes it would be after, has the advantage of a rear gunner with an MG 15. In addtion, fixed forward armament was a respectable two MG/FF 2cm cannons, and a fixed 7.92mm MG17. Above all, it would be recoverable of the weather permitted.

I didn't realize the Arado had 20mm cannon, which would indeed make a difference. Slow speed is not an advantage in an interceptor, though. It gives your opponent's gunners too much time to shoot at you. You want to come in fast and shoot him down, ideally before he sees you. If you miss, you go around for another pass. He is helpless because he can't pursue you. Many fighter pilots died because they tried to slow down to the speed of their enemy instead of using their own high speed as an advantage. Some of them got away with it, but when you slow down you put yourself in your enemy's range of capability.

Being recoverable is of course a really big deal. One question I have is whether an aircraft could be maintained at a high enough state of readiness that it could be launched in time to intercept an enemy attack. I don't think Bismarck had an effective air search radar, and the low speed of the Arado would be a real disadvantage in achieving an intercept.

I'm reminded of the time a Sunderland's gunners shot down several JU-88s trying to do the same to it.

[dunmunro]

Victorious' Swordfish had a Fulmar escort. One or two Me-109s would still have problems with the Fulmars, especially at low altitude.

[30knots]

Why bother with a 109? The Arado 196 has a useful speed advantage over the Swordfish and Albacore torpedo bombers, a lower stall speed than the 109, so that it can actually get to nearly as low a speed as the biplanes it would be after, has the advantage of a rear gunner with an MG 15. In addtion, fixed forward armament was a respectable two MG/FF 2cm cannons, and a fixed 7.92mm MG17. Above all, it would be recoverable of the weather permitted.

Were they launched during the Swordfish attacks, to use these weapons and advantage as mentioned ? I know only one catapult was operable, but can't find any reference to them being launched, or any plans or orders to do so.

Why would that be ?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

among the various " what if " this is one that always intrigued me a lot, why having so many Arado's while you can have some fighters like Me 109 as option.

The German tried the Me 109 departing from the KM warship catapult, real photos do exist about those trials, so it was possible.

The Italians did the same, but after the trials they equipped the Vittorio Veneto class battleships with the Reggiane 2003 fighters, so they implemented the option.

Now we do know that the Bismarck catapult was damaged after Denmark Strait so no possibility to launch any type of airplane anyhow, since they could not launch the Arado that was supposed to save the ship KTB and documentation as it was ordered to be done by Adm Lutjens.

This probably would have made useless anyhow the fighters presence no matter what, but still...... a very interesting option to be used,.... but never implemented as said.

To be considered that the Arado used on that way took down some HMS Victorious Albacores during the Tirpitz attack on Operation Sportpalast, so it worked well.....

Bye Antonio

[30knots]

Now we do know that the Bismarck catapult was damaged after Denmark Strait so no possibility to launch any type of airplane anyhow

I thought only one 'half' of the catapult was damaged.