Did Bismarck offer surrender?

[RNfanDan]

It seems Brits love to enjoy the BISMARCK's end all in revenge for HMS HOOD. Brits still cannot bear the thought of HMS HOOD being sunk so easily.

This is pure propaganda and fiction.

No, it is merely the poster's opinion...in my own humble opinion, that is...

[Seekanone]

Yes, it is, more or less my opinion. As "fans" of the Royal Navy find flaws with BISMARCK, they tend to overlook or explain away those of HMS HOOD, HMS KING GEORGE V, HMS PRINCE OF WALES (crippled by lucky Japanese torpedo hit, otherwise would have lived through the massive torpedo attacks to sink all Japanese troopships within range of her guns).
There are "fans" who argue that the RN Force Z could have defeated Kondo's BB and CA forces in night combat although only with a screen of four destroyers. Kondo had at his disposal, two battleships, seven heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and at least fifteen destroyers and yet Force Z would have defeated the Nihon Kaigun in night combat.
Reason for this absurd claim: RN victory at Cape Matapan where three British BBs annihilated three Italian Heavy Cruisers (one dead in the water) at night by use of searchlights and superior, less visible powder.
What they leave out is that they were fighting a navy completely untrained in night battle and did not have powder bags equipped with low flash substance for night combat and were caught completely by surprised. Kondo would have been the aggressor and Phillips knew it. He would have been cautious (rightly so) and tried to minimize loss to his meager force.
Japan would have annihilated Force Z.
Propaganda works for Britain doesn't it. BISMARCK did not surrender. Britain lost HMS Hood. Germany lost BISMARCK. No
propaganda, just the truth.

[Karl Heidenreich]

My two cents.

The allies and their supporters know very well that their victory, in overall terms, was that of numerical superiority and industrial might instead that of tactical and technological proficiency. WWII is full of episodes in which a German ship, a plane,a tank or an army required that the allies sum up all their available means to defeat it. Bismarck is of all the most famous episode. In order to explain that to the future generations "stories" and "follies" have to came up. That is why the Bismarck design has been attacked so much even in this, a Bismarck dedicated forum. But at last, thanks to a group of guys that made research, brought out primary sources many of these attacks have been dismissed. Bismarck was only second to Yamato as the most powerfull battleship of WWII.
So, now we come to this: that after 2,000 + shells fired from a numerical superior fleet against a steer less Bismarck (wow, that's brave!!) and after Mullenheim Rechberg's account (confirmed by James Cameron's documentary, for what that last is worth) then we have that "Bismarck tried to surrender". Not only it did NOT surrender but those being under torture from Tovey at Bismarck's deck made the nazi salute and then abandoned the sinking ship. No German sailor care to surrender but were proud in their darkest hour, alone and without any help.

No surrender nor quarters were offered by Bismarck's crew. In case of doubt anyone can read Mullenheim Rechberg's account of the Bismarck.

In the other cases there are a lot of "if". I think that Seekanone has made the points there. But that "if" goes both ways. What "if" Yamamoto would have bring it's battleships alongside the carriers at Midway? What "if" in II Guadalacanl the Japanese instead of sending "old reffited" Kirishima with it's 14" guns loaded with HE munition would have sent Yamato loaded with 18" AP munitions to give South Dakota and Washington a little bit of medicine; what "if" Bismarck decided that PoW's days came to an end on May 24th and after sink it turn around to Norway via Denmarck Straits blowing Norfolk and Suffolk out of the water; what "if" Kurita decided not to send Nishimura to Surigao, join with him and, all forces passing though San Bernandino destroy Kinkaid, wait to beat Oldendorf and then just wait for Halsey, there are a lot of "if" and work both ways.

The allies were not the best warriors and did not have the best equipment: the axis had. But they were in such numerical inferiority that could not win.

[RNfanDan]

Yes, it is, more or less my opinion. As "fans" of the Royal Navy find flaws with BISMARCK, they tend to overlook or explain away those of HMS HOOD, HMS KING GEORGE V, HMS PRINCE OF WALES...

I have an immense appreciation of each of the ships mentioned, as well as nearly all major European naval fleets of the early-mid 20th century. I think I can rely on Karl and other "regulars" here to agree that I am not exactly one of Bismarck's harsher critics---at least not to the point of being associated with those individuals whom you apparently hold in such contempt.

Furthermore, while I certainly am a "fan" of Royal Navy ships and operations, especially during and between the two World Wars, I am not blinded by any notions of British infallibility (very much the opposite, in fact). I appreciate naval technologies and operational histories of all sides of the conflicts during the above-described period, and have a great interest in those navies who stood against Britain.

BISMARCK did not surrender. Britain lost HMS Hood. Germany lost BISMARCK. No
propaganda, just the truth.

I generally agree with this statement, but if you feel my forum "handle" as RNfanDan somehow makes me into a tunnel-visioned, wild-eyed apologist / propagandist for Britain, you're barking up the wrong tree!

Regards,

Dan

[Karl Heidenreich]

RNfanDan:

I think I can rely on Karl and other "regulars" here to agree that I am not exactly one of Bismarck's harsher critics---at least not to the point of being associated with those individuals whom you apparently hold in such contempt.

You have always been very balanced in your views and your comments have always been quite balanced. And be sure you will NEVER be associated with the patisan factions that want to distort History .

[phil gollin]

............. Not only it did NOT surrender but those being under torture from Tovey at Bismarck's deck made the nazi salute and then abandoned the sinking ship. No German sailor care to surrender but were proud in their darkest hour, alone and without any help.

No surrender nor quarters were offered by Bismarck's crew. In case of doubt anyone can read Mullenheim Rechberg's account of the Bismarck. ............

I'm afraid that your ideas are rather idealist (and a little peculiar). I suggest you read "The Baron's" initial comments when he was rescued.

.

[Andy H]

Hi All

I think one has to seperate the idea of an official attempt at surrender and a ad-hoc attempt made by desperate men in a desperate situation.

I doubt that the senior officers aboard Bismarck undertook an attempt at surrender. However its not beyond the wit of man that the aformentioned desperate men in a living incarnation of dante's inferno would attempt such thing! Nobody on this board could say hand on heart that they wouldn't do whatever it takes to save their own or that of there badly injured friend(s) in such a situation.

If this later attempt did take place then it adds not a jot of shame to either sides participation in the event or mean that the men taking part are less worthy of our admiration or praise for undertaking what they did.

Regards

[RF]

Yes, it is, more or less my opinion. As "fans" of the Royal Navy find flaws with BISMARCK, they tend to overlook or explain away those of HMS HOOD, HMS KING GEORGE V, HMS PRINCE OF WALES

I don't think so. I certainly don't, as evidenced within the multitude of posts over the last four years.

[RF]

There are "fans" who argue that the RN Force Z could have defeated Kondo's BB and CA forces in night combat although only with a screen of four destroyers. Kondo had at his disposal, two battleships, seven heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and at least fifteen destroyers and yet Force Z would have defeated the Nihon Kaigun in night combat.
Reason for this absurd claim: RN victory at Cape Matapan where three British BBs annihilated three Italian Heavy Cruisers (one dead in the water) at night by use of searchlights and superior, less visible powder.

Evidence? And by whom?

[RF]

Propaganda works for Britain doesn't it.

What propaganda?

[lwd]

...There are "fans" who argue that the RN Force Z could have defeated Kondo's BB and CA forces in night combat although only with a screen of four destroyers.

It's a very strong arguement. Although you have to realize as some here don't that there is a huge difference between "could have" and "would have".

...What they leave out is that they were fighting a navy completely untrained in night battle ...

The RN was "completely untrained in night battle"? I'm afraid you are going to have to substantiate that before I'll believe it. Indeed my understanding is rather the opposite.

[RF]

The RN was "completely untrained in night battle"? I'm afraid you are going to have to substantiate that before I'll believe it. Indeed my understanding is rather the opposite.

I concur entirely.

[paulcadogan]

The RN was "completely untrained in night battle"? I'm afraid you are going to have to substantiate that before I'll believe it. Indeed my understanding is rather the opposite.

I think he was refering to the Italian Navy.

I think one has to seperate the idea of an official attempt at surrender and a ad-hoc attempt made by desperate men in a desperate situation.I doubt that the senior officers aboard Bismarck undertook an attempt at surrender. However its not beyond the wit of man that the aformentioned desperate men in a living incarnation of dante's inferno would attempt such thing! Nobody on this board could say hand on heart that they wouldn't do whatever it takes to save their own or that of there badly injured friend(s) in such a situation.If this later attempt did take place then it adds not a jot of shame to either sides participation in the event or mean that the men taking part are less worthy of our admiration or praise for undertaking what they did.

Completely agree with you Andy.

[Seekanone]

RF, read what I write. I said the Italian Navy was untrained in night fighting, not the RN. As to evidence or proof, my opinion is good enough for me. You have no obligation to agree whatsoever. BISMARCK did not surrender and if you can prove that she did, do so.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Seekanone:

BISMARCK did not surrender and if you can prove that she did, do so.

Bismarck did not surrender. She fight to the last of it's capabilities. Her crew didn't surrender neither, just sought to survive when the ship sunk.