2 questions regarding Bismarck

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Djoser
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by Djoser »

RF wrote:
alecsandros wrote:My impression is he (they) chose boldness over safeness... The trip to France was twice as long as the trip to Norway...
But still safer. Bismarck would have made it but for a fluke hit......
Yeah good point, you beat me to it lol.

Great posts, Tommy and Alecsandros...
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by Djoser »

alecsandros wrote:
t-geronimo wrote: From which point of view?
From today?
Yes... Had Lujens had known of the concentration of RN ships on the way to Brest, he probably woudl have gone to Norway.

The crippling torpedo hit would have come sooner or later. Ark Royal had at least one full day to launch further torpedo strikes. AND, even if the torpedo wouldn't have hit the rudder, it would have caused further damage and force the ship to slow down even more, probably ~ 15kts (because it allready received 2x14" shells and 2 aerial torpedoes beforehand, because of which the economical speed was 20kts). Not to mention the accumulation of DDs, CLs and CAs, which were doing 32kts+, and which might deliver further torpedoes...
I'm not so sure it was inevitable, but I'm glad you raised this point.

I wasn't aware that there would have been that much more potential to cripple and/or destroy Bismarck; almost none of the many books I have read on the subject diverge from the apparent standard line that it was virtually the last possible chance. Maybe this is yet another myth of Bismarck the Death Star, to quote whatshisname with the special on History Channel lol.

Wasn't he close to reaching the point at which the Luftwaffe could have intervened when the hit took place? Granted the British would have kept at it regardless of losses, if they thought they could sink him--but it would have been a much tougher prospect the closer Bismarck got to Brest, isn't that the case?
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RF
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by RF »

Certainly. Don't forget that the aftermath of the fatal hit, as well as the hit itself, made things easier for the British because Bismarck was heading away from France and the Luftwaffe support. Had Tovey not been stretched by the tight fuel logistics he could have waited until the afternoon of the 27 May to finish the job, with Bismarck a further 70 or more miles away from succour.
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by alecsandros »

@RF
Bismarck was 900-1000km away from Brest when the fatal torpedo hit was delivered. The ship was steaming at 20kts (37km/h), considered the "best economical speed for reaching Brest", as the officers onboard decided. This means at least 24 hours to reach harbor (if not 30). The presence and numbers of Luftwaffe warplanes is a great question mark for me, as in most cases LW and KGM did not operate well together at all (see also the many attacks over Tirpitz... which was actualy in a harbor, and very close to fighter squadrons of LW...)

Moreover, Ark Royal's force H was ~ 150km south-east of Bismarck's location when the torpedo hit. Thus, Renown and several destroyers could have been detached for a surface attack over Bismarck. Sheffield, Norfolk, Dorsetshire were also close enough for attempting torpedo strikes during the night. There were also Vian's destroyers... And the many many bombers and torpedo-bombers of Coastal Command...
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by alecsandros »

What should be added though is that Bismarck was under heavy storm clouds, and this may have hindered the ability of British ships to torpedo her. Also, air contact may have been lost the following day because of the low, heavy storm clouds.
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by RobertsonN »

Interesting discussion. Perhaps, I speculate entirely, considerations of an offensive nature, also played a part. If he crossed the Atlantic from Greenland to France he would dislocate British convoys for several days even if he did'nt sink any merchantmen, whereas returning to Norway would seem less disruptive. He was accountable to Raeder and Hitler and maybe wanted to achieve some limited result in terms of the mission in order to avoid undue criticism. We know how the voyage ended, but when he made the decision to head for Brest such an eventuality might have seemed very pessimistic.
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RF
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by RF »

Heading to Brest and getting there wouldn't necessarily be the end of the voyage, but a stopping off. Once repaired Bismarck could have sailed in company with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. And achieve the original aim of Rheinubung.
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Re: 2 questions regarding Bismarck

Post by tommy303 »

Bismarck was 900-1000km away from Brest when the fatal torpedo hit was delivered. The ship was steaming at 20kts (37km/h), considered the "best economical speed for reaching Brest", as the officers onboard decided. This means at least 24 hours to reach harbor (if not 30).
I believe the German fuel calculations were enough fuel to reach the area where German airpower could help cover the ship, and still have a tactical reserve sufficient for a higher speed dash to safety once.

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