80mm armor on the upper deck
Moderator: Bill Jurens
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
80mm armor on the upper deck
Hello,
I don't understand this:
- was the upper deck of Bismarck 80mm thick around the main AND secondary turrets, and con tower ? Or only around the secondary turrets ?
- was the upper deck of Tirpitz 80mm thick in the areas mentioned above ?
Thanks,
I don't understand this:
- was the upper deck of Bismarck 80mm thick around the main AND secondary turrets, and con tower ? Or only around the secondary turrets ?
- was the upper deck of Tirpitz 80mm thick in the areas mentioned above ?
Thanks,
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
According official sources only around the centre and rear secondary turrets.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
But for Tirpitz at least I read accounts of members of the breaking team that mentioned 80mm weather deck around "main barbettes" ?
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
I don't know such accounts. So what do they say? Where were the 80 mm exactly? What was their purpose?
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
"Around the main barbettes" and "around the secondary barbettes".
Thickness was much bigger than in the rest of the weather deck (8cm vs 5cm), which was why the breaking company observed it - it was much harder to cut the steel from around the barbettes than it was to cut it from the rest of the upper deck.
I don't understand if those accounts mention explicitly a continous thickness of 8cm around the barbettes, or alternating stripes of 5 and 8cm.
I'll try obtaining more first-hand information about this though.
====
P.S.: The 8cm thickness around the main barbettes appears also in Siegried Breyer's analysis. Do you have more thoughts on this ?
Thickness was much bigger than in the rest of the weather deck (8cm vs 5cm), which was why the breaking company observed it - it was much harder to cut the steel from around the barbettes than it was to cut it from the rest of the upper deck.
I don't understand if those accounts mention explicitly a continous thickness of 8cm around the barbettes, or alternating stripes of 5 and 8cm.
I'll try obtaining more first-hand information about this though.
====
P.S.: The 8cm thickness around the main barbettes appears also in Siegried Breyer's analysis. Do you have more thoughts on this ?
- Dave Saxton
- Supporter
- Posts: 3148
- Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Rocky Mountains USA
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
I don't know how far a thicker section thickness extended in this case, but the use of thicker section thickness at certain points is often used in welded construction. It may not be at the point of the weld joints in some cases, but at particular breaks in continuity or stress points to prevent the formation and then the propagation of cracks or tears. This is because welded construction joins structural pieces into one big piece and a tear or crack can keep progressing unabated through welded joints.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
If I recall correctly, William Garzke mentioned in conversation that the increased thickness around the barbettes was for strengthening the weather deck to make up for the inherent weaknesses caused by the very large openings required for the barbettes themselves.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
That's why I was asking about the purpose. The strengthening of the deck near the secondary armament was because of the openings and not to increase protection. The specification of the hull is vage regarding the weather deck around the main artillery. I consider it possible that there were thicker plates for strengthening reasons, but I doubt, that one could say that the weather deck over the magazines was 80 mm.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
Marc, what was the extent of the 80mm plates around the secondary barbettes ?
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
I don't know it exactly. I just know for sure that it was plate between the barbette and the hull. Everything else would be speculation. What makes me wonder is that this plate was so small. Normally I would expect a much longer plate.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
Well, how small was the plate ?
-------
-------
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
Well, the plate is not as small as I recalled, but the final welded arrangement differs a lot from the riveted one.
- Attachments
-
- centre turret, port
- upper deck .jpg (27.14 KiB) Viewed 2382 times
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
And which ones are 80mm thick ? The 4 plates that come in contact with the barbette ?
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1580
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
I don't know. The quality of my copy of the plan is too bad. At least the plate between the barbette and the outer hull should be 80 mm.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
- Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: 80mm armor on the upper deck
Ok...
I tried contacting several Norwegian people who could shed some light on the issue.\
One has a fjord-diving company, which explores the area of Tromso where Tirpitz was destroyed - I thought he may have some aquaintances amongst the men who helped break the ship.
Another is the Tirpitz museum, in Norway, which should have relations to many people who actualy participated in the dismantling of the battleship.
Another is Hovding Shipbreakers, the Norwegian firm who bought the rigths to salvage. (I tried contacting them via the city-halls website)
Until now, no one replied... If I get any luck, I'll let you know...
I tried contacting several Norwegian people who could shed some light on the issue.\
One has a fjord-diving company, which explores the area of Tromso where Tirpitz was destroyed - I thought he may have some aquaintances amongst the men who helped break the ship.
Another is the Tirpitz museum, in Norway, which should have relations to many people who actualy participated in the dismantling of the battleship.
Another is Hovding Shipbreakers, the Norwegian firm who bought the rigths to salvage. (I tried contacting them via the city-halls website)
Until now, no one replied... If I get any luck, I'll let you know...