Stern chasing

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
I realise we have had similar discussions before, but a lot has been said about why Bismarck did not persue PoW. Reading various books on the battle including the one by the Baron, it seems to me that although Bismarck had perhaps a two knot advantage over Pow when they were new, all these speeds were taken in ideal conditions. Now, Bismarck had suffered a serious hit in the bow from which she shipped around 2000 tons of water and pictures show her down in the bow and according to the Baron her propellers were coming out of the water in the rough seas which must have slowed her down, particulary as the damage had to be assessed and the bulkheads possibly shored up until the hole could be temporarily patched. In this case surely any idea of persuit must have been out of the question, particulary as PoW was still capable of her full speed and, (as far as the Germans knew) retained the full capability of her rear turret, wereas Bismarck would have been firing from a bow position down with a heavy sea breaking over her as she gave chase. If my senario is correct then in my opinion Lutyens was perfectly correct in not persuing PoW, especially as he really could not afford to take any more damage.
Am I correct, in your opinions?

[RF]

In terms of that analysis yes. But were the seas that rough? Bismarck was still capable of firing full salvoes and the full extent of the impact of that hit on Bismarck's seaworthiness was not immediately apparent. Under direct fire POW's gunnery was less effective, which the German battle observers would have reported.
In this context I would then say the answer to your question is no.

[yellowtail3]

Chasing down Prince of Wales? Could have been done, but risky risky risky.

First, I expect that if PoW was really running, she could have gone at least as fast as Bismarck, probably faster. She'd have been making smoke, and so hard to see. I'm not looking at a map, but there were two friendly cruisers around who at that point - Bismarck trying to run down Prince of Wales? - would have put on all possible turns to intervene.

The full extent of Bismarck's damage would becomed clear after a few more minutes at full throttle, shooting at a target obscured by smoke.

A very dicey proposition, trying to run down PoW... and this doesn't even include Bismarck getting further damage by return 14" fire. Best skeddadle on away, as Lutjens chose to do.

[paul.mercer]

Thanks chaps,
One of the reasons for my question is that in the Baron's book he says that when Bismarck was down at the bow she was pitching badly, which presumably would bring the sea over her bows and possibly affect her gunnery wereas PoW would not have that problem. (I know all her guns were not working but the Germans would'nt have known that)

[paulcadogan]

OK, I'll bite...

I know this has been thrashed out over and over, but looking at the situation of both sides when PoW turned away..

Prince of Wales:

1) Shell ring of Y turret was jammed depriving it of ammo (this was not fixed until 0825 - over 2 hours later)
2) 400 tons of water in hull starboard aft
3) HACS directors (starboard) damaged fore (direct hit) and aft (from funnel hit) - no stbd directors for 5,25-inch guns
4) maximum reported speed: 26 knots
5) Aft DCT for main armament unable to direct fire (even if turret was functional) due to smoke screen and smoke from damaged funnel

Bismarck

1) Down by the bow, water entering through shell holes in bow when steaming at at high speed
2) listing 9 deg to port
3) Main and secondary armaments fully functional
4) capable of 28 knots

Prinz Eugen - Undamaged, capable of 32 knots

Norfolk - Undamaged, potentially able to intervene

Suffolk - Undamaged but too far astern of Bismarck to intervene in a timely manner

So..with PoW unable to reply with her aft turret, and supposedly 2 knots slower than Bismarck, the latter could slowly gain on her and could still score hits (compare the Twins chasing Glorious) even with the smoke. She may have been forced to reduce speed however if the bow flooding worsened. Prinz Eugen could overhaul PoW faster to starboard and disrupt her course with torpedoes, but would be at high risk from her fwd 14-inch guns.

I would suspect that if Leach realized he could not escape, he would have turned around and fought it out to the end bringing his forward guns back into play, with Norfolk and eventually Suffolk joining in. Because of PoW's gunnery problems, the advantage would still lie with the Germans, unless the British were able to score telling hits.

The bottom line is that the overarching German directive of "No unnecessary risk" dictated the rejection of the pursuit option because doing so would put B & PE at further risk, plus Lutjens had no idea what might just be over the horizon. His intelligence had let him down making him think Home Fleet heavy ships were far far away as he made his run through the DS. Hood and "KGV" had come out of nowhere, so where were the others? Nope...hold your course!

[alecsandros]

@Paul
And don't forget BS and PoW were at only 14km distance at 6:03, so it was quite at hand to land some hits on the British battleship.

[RF]

The ''overarching German directive'' you mention of ''no unnecessary risks'' mean't that if literally followed there would have been no DS battle at all. Or if it had started then Prinz Eugen would have been hauled out of line, even if it hadn't come under fire from Hood.

The analysis from my previous post to this appears not to have been considered in saying that the risks were disproportionately unfavourable to Bismarck; the action could have been contiued at long range without the full import of the damage to Bismarck being realised and with the Germans noticing how ineffective the fire from POW was once it was the German target. At that time Norfolk could not intervene, it was out of range on the evidence of its own shooting, from the six half salvoes fired from A and B turrets. Neither could the six British destroyers intervene, they were even further back.

No, the principal risks taken by the Germans had been run, albeit not completely succesfully, namely in engaging Hood and leaving POW unfired on apart from the Eugen who was not in the best position to do so, and in leaving the Eugen exposed to fire that could have sunk that ship. The risks run had rewarded Lutjens with Hood quickly sunk, which transformed the basis of the battle. Big risk was replaced with much smaller risk.

[paulcadogan]

But the Germans had been "surprised" by Holland's force - thinking there were no British capital ships in the area and initially seeing what they expected to see - two cruisers. Once action was joined and they realized they were facing a fast, powerful force they had no choice but to fight it out. Had they known Hood & PoW were in the area they would have altered away immediately on the Prinz's hydrophones picking up propeller noises. Lutjens and Brinkmann were criticized for keeping the Prinz in line which was contrary to standard practice.

In reality the odds were very favourable to Bismarck, but again Lutjens would not have known what other forces were in the vicinity and a quick decision was made.

Dealing with a risky situation that has been thrust upon you is quite different from actively pursuing one.

Today is the 71st anniversary of the Battle of the Denmark Strait - remembering the victors and the vanquished...always!

[alecsandros]

Today is the 71st anniversary of the Battle of the Denmark Strait - remembering the victors and the vanquished...always!

Absolutely... Honor to the brave.

Regarding the decision - it wasn't that clear cut. After all, a ship that gets away can chase you by radar for hundreds of miles... And that's exactly what PoW did after damage repair...

[paulcadogan]

True, but there were already 2 ships doing that...what's one more?

But then again, that makes one wonder what Lutjens may have thought of his decision later in the day. The shadowing cruisers now had a battleship escort making an all out assault to get rid of them once in the open Atlantic much more dangerous as evidenced by the second action that evening during the separation from Prinz Eugen.

If PoW had not been there, Bismarck could very well have sunk the Suffolk, evaded the Norfolk and got a half day's head start of freedom.

[alecsandros]

That's what I was thinking also.
It may help running from the battle once or twice, but in the end, it always catches up with you...

Lutjens must have assumed that the 2 CAs and 2 BBs he allready encountered were coming from Scapa Flow. So he was trying to get as far as possible from the British base.
I understand why he continued south, but I don't understand why he couldn't risk some 10-15 minutes of stern chase against the PoW, at 14km distance. It was enough time to inflict further damage on PoW, maybe enough to make it return to port. Or maybe not. Maybe he wouldn;'t have hit at all. But at least he would have tried something. Norfolk and Suffolk were still to far to make an impression on the German squadron in those 15 minutes (so up to 6:30 or so).

And, of course, with PoW further damaged, PE and BS may have remained together, and respond together against the Swordfish attacks... Who knows ?

[paulcadogan]

Thinking about it, when PoW turned to withdraw from the battle, her last salvoes had been ragged and with few guns - the last two were single shells. The Germans probably thought she was heavily damaged (British ships generally did not break off action unless this was so) and was no longer a threat. (One might argue that this should have made pursuit even more logical!) The first indication that this was not so was at about 6:20 or so when she came about and fired another salvo. But by then the range had increased substantially and re-engaging would not likely have achieved the desired result.

Regarding the British cruisers, had Bismarck turned to pursue PoW earlier, Norfolk would have come into the picture very quickly since the Germans would have been steaming across her bow from the starboard side- i.e. at almost a right angle to her course. But Bismarck's aft turrets could have kept her at bay. Suffolk was too far astern to starboard to get involved at all.

[alecsandros]

Indeed, seeing the heavy smoke curtain and observing the rare salvos, and the small number of shells falling in each salvo, the Germans must have thought PoW ("KGV" for them :) ) was heavily damaged...

Norolk was some 22-23km to the north, so in 15 minutes he could have gained some 12km, if she was already worked up to 32kts... If not, probably 10km. But for the duration of the approach, she could only use her forward guns, while under the arcs of fire of all 16 German guns... I doubt she could have done anything, even if she could get close to 10-12km of the German squadron...

Cheers,

[RF]

But the Germans had been "surprised" by Holland's force - thinking there were no British capital ships in the area and initially seeing what they expected to see - two cruisers.

Not exactly - Prinz Eugen had picked up the approaching screws of two heavy ships for some two to three hours, then the two approaching cruisers were identified as Hood plus ''a more modern vessel'' from Bismarcks' foretop, and then Lutjens hesitated before giving orders to open fire, after Hood and POW had commenced firing.

In reality the odds were very favourable to Bismarck, but again Lutjens would not have known what other forces were in the vicinity and a quick decision was made.

Not reallly - Bismarck was outnumbered two to one, 18 heavy guns to 8, even though initially only 10 were in firing position..

Dealing with a risky situation that has been thrust upon you is quite different from actively pursuing one.

I'm not quite sure what this is intended to mean. Lutjens was presented with a situation that required quick decisions - he hesitated but the British mistakes gave him an undeserved respite while his guns dealt with Hood.
Without Hood firing on the wrong ship and Bismarck quickly blowing up the Hood it could have turned into a sticky situation for Lutjens.

[RF]

Indeed, seeing the heavy smoke curtain and observing the rare salvos, and the small number of shells falling in each salvo, the Germans must have thought PoW ("KGV" for them :) ) was heavily damaged...
Cheers,

This is the logical situation to take. A bold commander like Scheer or Marschall would have done what I believe Nelson would have done if he commanded Bismarck - go after the enemy.