Bismarck plans in Soviet hands

Coyote850 · Post by **Coyote850** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:51 am

A friend of mine says that he read the Bismarcks plans/scematics were sold to the Russains before the war. Any info about this?

Matthias · Post by **Matthias** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:36 am

I have no info about this fact, but being Hitler perfectly aware of the fact he would have spread out war to the russian in some years, I'm asking myself why he should have sold the plans of his mightiest battleships to his enemy...I mean, it's not the hull of an incomplete heavy cruiser, it's the Bismarck...

Kit-Builder · Post by **Kit-Builder** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:09 am

Welcome to the site Coyote850

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My understanding is the Soviets had 70% of the ships plans before the outbreak of hostilities. This is no surprise about this as the soviet military mission to German had been given an open-house approach by order of Hitler as part of the treaty between them (really only so he could do the French first). The soviet mission was very unhappy because of the protracted approach displayed towards them and against Hitler’s direct order. The mission also felt that they were being denied information about German tank production and design development. The gist of the complaint was that the soviets couldn’t believe that the PzKw IV was the heaviest tank nor could they come to terms with the comparatively low production numbers. The navy dragged their feet in handing on information and sighted “technical difficulties” as the reason.
Regards Steve

Coyote850 · Post by **Coyote850** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:19 pm

Thanks for the welcome.

Did the Russians learn anything about the ship from these plans? Did they pass on what they learned to the Brits?
It does seem insane that the Germans would supply the plans to the Bismarck to the Russians. But Hitler was not the clearest thinker in the world either.

Kit-Builder · Post by **Kit-Builder** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:26 pm

"Did the Russians learn anything about the ship from these plans?"

That I can't say. I suspect that warship plans were the least of their concern as army group center arrived outside Moscow. Then there was the protracted job of removing the intruding German army from their homeland.

"Did they pass on what they learned to the Brits?"

Funny story was that Stalin and Churchill hated each other with a passion. Each had spent most of the interwar years trying to destabilize each others governments. The only thing keeping the soviets and the Brits together was the US who forced them into bed (both knew that the US manufacturing power was going to be the tipping point of the war). So no I don't think anything info changed hands

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It does seem insane that the Germans would supply the plans to the Bismarck to the Russians.

If you think about the fact that both ships were in production and that there was nothing the soviets could do to utilize the information by building something to counter them. When the Bismarck went down the slipway the Germans and soviets had the binding “non aggression pact” that was all but an alliance, so strong that Stalin refused to believe that the Germans had broken it for the first few days of the invasion.

But Hitler was not the clearset thinker in the world either.

History is a funny thing. I’ve read that if Hitler had died in 1939 he would be thought of as one of the greatest German leaders of all time. He was greatly admired by other world leaders before the war and it was felt that he was just what German needed to recover from the depression.
That’s the up side. The down side was that he had to go to war (yep clear thinking gone bad there) because Germany was on the verge of bankruptcy. Also I understand that even if the Germans had of subdued the soviets that he couldn’t pay the cost of the war up to 1943 (Molotov’s presented terms for a sensation of hostilities in early 43 that would have returned the Germans to the 41 starting point. We all know how that was received).
By explanation I personally think that the Nazi regime was one of histories true black spots and Hitler cared not a jot for a single drop of blood that was given up by the youth of German. He was a DH pure and simple.

That’s a very abridged interpretation but essentially relevant to your questions.
Regards Steve

Post by **José M. Rico** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:53 pm

Hello everyone,

Both British and Americans already had a relatively good detailed set of Bismarck plans by September 1941. Whether these plans were based on their own evaluations, or obtained from the Soviets, I can't say. However, I doubt the Soviets would supply anything to the Allies before June 1941.

José

BISMARCK
TRACED FROM BRITISH PLAN
DATED SEPT. 6 1941.

PRELIMINARY DESIGN BRANCH
BUREAU OF SHIPS
NAVY DEPARTMENT

Ulrich Rudofsky · Post by **Ulrich Rudofsky** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:58 pm

I think you are thinking about the unfinished LÜTZOW and the plans the Soviets got in 1940. http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... story.html

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:16 am

The soviets got a lot of intelligence that not even now we know where it came from.

There has been a lot of speculation of far more important issues, like the timetable of the Citadel Operation in 1943, that, apparently, the Russians had in their own hands before the Germans open the offensive. Mistery lovers are always trying to tie this facts with mythical traitors, being Martin Bormann one of them. Why? Because he simply vanished.

I always asked myself why a Nazi Figure like Bormann would betray Hitler knowing that the man was completly paranoic.

But what is not an overestimation is the fact that soviet intelligence services were very effective and were given all Stalin´s support.
On the other hand: if the soviets (or the British or the Americans) had the plans, why did they estimated Bismarck´s displacement at 35,000 tons and not at over 45,000 tons. Or they not? Was that the reason why Lancelot Holland was rushing to close on Bismarck at Denmark´s Straits, because he knew that Bismarck represent a danger in a long range artillery duel.

werther · Post by **werther** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:34 am

There was a deal between German and Soviet Union, that German got oil and other raw materials and they gave Soviet Union a heavy cruiser Lutzow, drawings of Bismarck, the complete turret with 38cm guns (like in Bismarck) and parts of torpedoes and mines. Stalin was very interested to develop his navy that's why there was so many naval things in deal. Lutzow was really sold to russians but I suspect that the rest of the deal didn't happen. It is also possible that Hitler was thinking to crush the Russians before they have any real use with their German naval "secrets".

My source is Finnish translation of Kurt von Tippelskirch's book about the history of the WWII. Unfortunately I've read it over ten years ago, so mistakes are possible.