Bismarck´s bow and aft stripes

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Karl Heidenreich
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Bismarck´s bow and aft stripes

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

I always understood that the swastika that Bismarck had both at bow and aft was inside a white circle and surrounded by a RED STRIPE. After watching some models and Cameron´s documentary it appear that the crew painted it GREY or was covered.
What really happended with this stripe? :think:
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Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

The crew painted both of the svastikas covering them with a grey tone may 22nd, after leaving Korsfjord.

About the wreck, well, paint isn't projected to be applied on a surface dirty of iodine and chlorine salts, water and so on.So, after the permanence in salty water for almost 65 years, it's seem logical to me that the original colours are visible under the light layer of grey.And that the famous yellow top, still fresh during the morning of may 27th, disappeared from the secondary guns turrets tops.;)
"Wir kämpfen bis zur letzten Granate."

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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Aside from the fact that after 65 years in the bottom the paint may be ruined, as a diver I know that water absourbs colours, and the red is the very first to disappear. So you have to light a red painted plate (or a coral for that instance) from less than 10 mts for the red colour to show up.
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Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

Infact, this is true for the original deeper layers of paint too.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Sorry, I think I got misunderstood.
When I was saying that water absourbs colours, I didn´t meant that the paint itself gets absourbed, but that the light´s wavelenght corresponding to the colour is filtered out by the water, so you can´t see that colour because its wavelenght doesn´t reach the eye.
Longer wavelenghts reaches less, shorter wavelenghts reaches farther. So as the red is the longer wavelenght visible for the human eye (it is the nearest one to the infrared, which is outside our visible spectrum), it is the first to disappear underwater, so you have to light the object from a distance shorter to the one that the wavelenght can reach.
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Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

marcelo_malara wrote:Sorry, I think I got misunderstood.
When I was saying that water absourbs colours, I didn´t meant that the paint itself gets absourbed, but that the light´s wavelenght corresponding to the colour is filtered out by the water, so you can´t see that colour because its wavelenght doesn´t reach the eye.
Longer wavelenghts reaches less, shorter wavelenghts reaches farther. So as the red is the longer wavelenght visible for the human eye (it is the nearest one to the infrared, which is outside our visible spectrum), it is the first to disappear underwater, so you have to light the object from a distance shorter to the one that the wavelenght can reach.
I perfectly understood...I couldn't think of such an absurd idea as the one of a solvent "absorbing" paint... :lol: I know you were speaking of light emission.;)

What I meant with "it's true for the deepe layers of paint too" is that even the deeper original paint of the metallic surface on Bismarck could have been ruined firstly by the action of salty enviroment during the sailing, then by the fire the british shells provoked the morning of may 27th and then by the long permanence on water, fact that anyway cause a little bit of the organic cromophores of the paint get solved.
Then, even the natural absorption of longer visible wavelenghts by water limits our sight, regarding the actual colout of the wreck's surfaces.;)
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

ah OK
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Mathias wrote:
The crew painted both of the svastikas covering them with a grey tone may 22nd, after leaving Korsfjord.
That means they painted the red stripes grey or that they painted all, swastika included, grey?
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Antonio Bonomi
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Air recognition marks

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Karl, Matthias and all,

they ( both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen ) executed the most logical order they should have received, once out of Luftwaffe air recognition humbrella, they painted over the air recognition marks on the deck.

So a couple of sailors went out with grey painture and covered ( painting over ) everything ; both swastika's and red banner's with the light grey paint.

This was done both on the bow as well as on the stern of course.

This way at least they could hope a RAF airplane spotting them on the Atlantic Ocean could get confused, ... with the swastikas was just like telling him ...'' hey guys,... here we are,.. and we are Germans for sure .. ''.

I am sure you got the point, ...

Very interesting to notice is that now that painture is gone,..and as left the one under it, ..showing the swastika's, .. back we are to Matthias correct reasoning of the paint applied on a wet surface,.. like the Yellow on the main turrets, ... as on the secondary that was never succesfully done according to the Bismark witness report.

Ciao Antonio :D
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pdfox99
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Post by pdfox99 »

Antonio,

I just received James Cameron's Bismarck Expedition DVD, and upon reviewing it. It showed the German Markings on the Bow and Stern as "he" rests 15,000 feet in the Atlantic. Were the markings repainted once they left Norway?

Paul
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Antonio Bonomi
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Air recognition

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Paul and all,

NO !

The original painture for the air recognition was done earlier on 1941 on the baltic sea harbours when they painted the Baltic camo scheme.

But that original painture had time to dry off, and probably was applied when the deck was not wet due to salt water.

That is why the original painture still hangs on to the deck.

Corret application process for the painture.

In the opposite the light grey applied on top of it into the Atlantic Ocean was painted on a wet surface, so not dry as teh one before, and that is why has been easily removed by the sea water itself down there once the ship sunk.

The application process was not the correct one as you had water humidity and salt under the painture that surely did not perfectly applied to the surface under it.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

So,
Until May 21st the Bismarck had the swastikas inside the RED stripes. OK? After that date they were completly covered with GRAY paint. OK?
The same happened with the black and white stripes of the hull´s camouflage and the waves? On the same date?
In this case Mr. Cameron´s documentary`s 3D Bismarck presents mistakes because we see it with gray stripes inside of which there is the white circle with the black swastikas and... no camouflage at all.
Well, nevertheless he is the same movie director the puts jealous billionares firing revolvers to his ex fiancee exactly when the Titanic is sinking. :shock:
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Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

Karl Heidenreich wrote: Well, nevertheless he is the same movie director the puts jealous billionares firing revolvers to his ex fiancee exactly when the Titanic is sinking. :shock:
Word, you catch the point...;)

Yes, the stripes were all covered that day with all the svastikas, infact you may see pictures of the Denmarck Strait in which Bismarck does not "dress" the stripes...;)
"Wir kämpfen bis zur letzten Granate."

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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Don´t know if the following fits in the discussion.
Cameron´s attention to detail is amazing in some scenes and nonexistant in others. I refer to Titanic. When the ship sails, you can see smoke from three funnels. I was amazed, because as you may know, Titanic´s fourth funnel was a fake. I thinked : "he did his homework". But I was later let down when Captain Smith calls "max speed" and the fourth funnel is smoking.
When the Titanic is about to strike the iceberg, they reversed the machines, and you can see the outer propellers stopping and turning back, but the inner propeller which was driven by a turbine without reverse, stay still.
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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

I think Antonio said it all. What it looks like on the bottom of the ocean does not mean a hell of lot. The ship had to have emblems that could be easily recognized from the air, and red was very important. A black and white swastika with a gray background would have been stupid, to say the least. For example, in April 1940, and for that month only, the emblem on some ships looked like this, as shown on a contemporary model made by Wiking (Wiking Modelle, Peter Schönfledt, Koehler Verlagsgesellschaft 1998)
Image Naval regulations for air recognition markings had to be issued quite frequently for obvious reasons and they had to be very, very specific. It would be nice to find those orders. Recognition mistakes were quite common phenomena and deadly. So gray bands and black and white emblems seem absurd as shown on this nice, but improbably model http://photobucket.com/albums/b138/urud ... nt=BS5.jpg
Ulrich
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