The Denmark Strait article map

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

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Antonio Bonomi
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The Denmark Strait article map

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

as promised, here my map :

http://www.kbismarck.org/photos/bds-map.jpg

I would like to take the occasion to thank personally Jose' Rico for the space offered on the website and his kind and fair support.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

:lol:

The map makes me think about what you told me about Bagnasco's idea of a similar map about the North Cape Battle... :wink:
"Wir kämpfen bis zur letzten Granate."

Günther Lütjens
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Re: The Denmark Strait article map

Post by José M. Rico »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:I would like to take the occasion to thank personally Jose' Rico for the space offered on the website and his kind and fair support.
No problem as long as I have free space available.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Maps

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Matthias, Jose' and all,

@ Jose',

many thanks again.

@ Matthias,

I have spoken with Mr. Bagnasco lately, and we have very good initiatives going on still to be published on Storia Militare on the next period.

So stay tuned,... it will come surely, .. but not only, .. as without good surprises life is boring and I just want to enjoy my hobby.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

Surely I'll be, I'm not missing any number of his paper from december to now...;) :D
"Wir kämpfen bis zur letzten Granate."

Günther Lütjens
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Post by Robert J. Winklareth »

Hi Antonio,

What speed are you using for the Bismarck from 0602-0609? The maximum speed of the Bismarck, according to Blohm & Voss, her builders, was 30.1 knots. It appears that your spacing of minute marks between 0602 and 0609 is somewhat greater than that.

Bob
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Antonio Bonomi
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DS map details

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Bob and all,

as I wrote you on another post, that map should not be used to make those type of measurements, due to scale and tolerances.

But you should remember we did what you are looking for time ago, and on that map scale you can make your measurements, evaluations and comparison very easily.

I am referring to this initial post map were you can find the Prinz Eugen original battle map and in red the Bismarck track done with an acceptable scale so you can make a good measurement of distances and speed.

viewtopic.php?t=180

Of course you will notice immediately that was done in march 2005 when I did not know yet the existance of Schmitz-Westerholt painture and consequently I had not moved yet the Bismarck red track on the Prinz Eugen starboard side.

With that evidence now we do know were Bismarck sailed compared to Prinz Eugen from the battle start (at 05.55 ) till Hood exploded (at 06.00) and it was the Prinz Eugen starboard side astern.

But leveraging on your enginnering skill you should not have any problem to move it on the right side of the Prinz Eugen track and make your evaluations.

If you really need it I can make it again moving the Bismarck red track from port to starboard of Prinz Eugen till the turn at 06.03 and consequently realizing the current scenario showed on my article map with an higher level of details.

It is an easy task if really needed.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Post by Robert J. Winklareth »

Hi Antonio,

Sorry, but I could not acquire the map that you were referring to in your last post. The latest large-scale map that I have is the one you posted on the Bismarck-class forum that shows the Bismarck 1275 yards astern of the Prinz Eugen at 0556 and which you now call “obsolete.” I asked you to provide a new large-scale map consistent with the overall battle diagram recently published in “Storia Militare,” but you refused.

Instead, you asked that we use your new map published in “Storia Militare” and again presented in your new start under this topic. Now you say not to use your new map to make distance measurements due to its scale and tolerances. Actually I had no difficulty in using your new map after scanning it and enlarging the key area to 4 times its original size. Your minute marks were very precise and consistent.

You correctly placed the Bismarck directly in line between the Prinz Eugen and Prince of Wales at 0609 in accordance with the observations by the two gunnery officers and the captain of the Prinz Eugen as reported in the Prinz Eugen’s official Kriegstagebuch (War Diary). The only problem that I have with your map is the separation between the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen at 0556, which you increased to 2343 yards from your earlier version showing only 1275 yards.

Using the sequential minute marks on the track of the Prinz Eugen as representing a distance of 911 yards consistent with her speed of 27.0 knots, I found that successive minute marks for the Bismarck represented distances beyond the 1016 yards that corresponded to her maximum speed of 30.1 knots as established by Blohm & Voss, the builders of the Bismarck.

Successive minute marks on the track of the Bismarck reflected a distance of 1054 yards and speed of 31.2 knots on the straight-line section of the track during the six-minute period from 0556-0602. Successive minute marks also reflected a distance of 1125 yards and a speed of 33.3 knots on the curved section of her track during the seven-minute period from 0602-0609, which is truly surprising since turns usually slow down a ship rather than result in an increase in its speed.

When each incremental error from 0556 to 0609 is added up, it represents an accumulated error of about 1000 yards. When that accumulated error is subtracted from the separation between the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen of 2343 yards, as shown on your new map, we get an actual separation of only about 1340 yards.

Unless you have proof that the Bismarck actually did attain a speed of 33.3 knots during the battle, more than 3 knots over her maximum speed of 30.1 knots you must reconcile that difference by other means to maintain the validity of your new scenario.

Regarding Lt. Schmitz’s sketch, I don’t understand how you could possibly consider an artist’s rendition of a scene as solid evidence regarding the relative position between the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen at any point during the battle. The official documentary evidence as well as the photographic evidence have already positively established that the Bismarck came up on the port side of the Prinz Eugen from 0556 until at least 0602.

The official Prinz Eugen’s Combat Sketch and Prince of Wales Salvo Plot clearly place the Bismarck on a course of 212 degrees, 8 degrees to port of the Prinz Eugen’s baseline course of 220 degrees from 0553-0602. Photos NH69722, NH69729, NH69730, and the uncataloged broadside view of the Bismarck passing the Prinz Eugen off the port beam of the cruiser all support the documentary evidence that the Bismarck came up on the port side of the Prinz Eugen.

Lt. Schmitz’s sketch does not represent what he actually saw at the time, but only what he imagined took place. The scene is from the perspective of being from a point off the starboard quarter of the Bismarck, but at the time, Lt. Schmitz was physically on the Prinz Eugen which, as shown in the sketch itself, was several hundred yards ahead of the Bismarck.

It is obvious from the sketch that Lt. Schmitz took artistic license to portray what he drew in the scene. As a marine artist myself, I can tell from the inclination of the Bismarck in the picture that it would have been impossible to see the sinking of the Hood in that location in real life. That part of the scene would actually have been far off to the left way beyond the area covered in the picture.

The actual location of the Prinz Eugen could have been anywhere, but Lt. Schmitz placed the cruiser just to the right of the Bismarck and still within the frame of the picture for obvious artistic purposes. Lt. Schmitz’s sketch, while a historic piece of German propaganda art, is absolutely worthless for analytic purposes, and I believe that even Bill Jurens will agree with me on that point.

By straightening out the track of the Bismarck based on Lt. Schmitz’s sketch, instead of continuing to use already established documentary evidence, you have introduced an additional 200 yards or more error into the equation. This makes the separation between the two German ships only about 1000 yards at 0556, according to your map after obvious errors have been corrected. Perhaps you will now reconsider issuing a new large-scale map to clarify your position.

Bob
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Matthias
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Post by Matthias »

Robert J. Winklareth wrote:The only problem that I have with your map is the separation between the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen at 0556, which you increased to 2343 yards from your earlier version showing only 1275 yards.
May be this is due to the fact that the vertical scaling of the map is different from the orizzontal one.Remember that the map had to fit with Bagnasco paper format.

About Lt Schmitz sketch, well, it's obvious that he could not, and he didn't want, as an artist, rapresent the exact scaling of the battle positions of both the german ships and of the english ones: the sense of the sketch is to show Hood sinking, the best Lütjens victory, while Bismarck is firing and Prinz Eugen is some hundreds yards ahead of Bismarck's bow.
What is interesting of this painture is that Schmitz, being an observer of the battle, placed the heavy cruiser ahead of the Bismarck while Hood is sinking, so around 0601-0602, and Lütjens ship is firing with Caesar and Dora.So, still before Prinz Eugen first famous turn to 270° because of torpedo trails.

Regards,

Mattia
"Wir kämpfen bis zur letzten Granate."

Günther Lütjens
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

May be this is due to the fact that the vertical scaling of the map is different from the orizzontal one.Remember that the map had to fit with Bagnasco paper format.
I know very little about this technical stuff, but doesn't a regular home or office copier, scanner and printer induce some distortions and horizontal/vertical scaling, proportional, and spherical errors? And is it true that a Xerox of a xerox of xerox compounds such errors? :think:
Ulrich
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Antonio Bonomi
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My battle map and more

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all

@ Bob,

OK, I see your problems with the higher scale map.

To eliminate all misunderstanding possibilities I will draw it again on the Prinz Eugen original battle map as I did before :D .

With that you can make all the measurements you want to double check the Bismarck speed as well as the closure distance ratio with Prinz Eugen during the battle time ( from 05.55 till 06.09 ).

But that is an easy one and soon I suppose it will be OK for you.

What I think is more difficult for you to accept is the evidence of Ltnt Schmitz—Westerholt painture.

The guy was a battle witness and I do not see any reason why he intentionally should have changed the reality he saw with his eyes.
He could have painted very easily and with same effects Bismarck sailing on port side, or closer to Prinz Eugen.
But he did not and showed Bismarck sailing on Prinz Eugen starboard side astern while catching up to the German heavy cruiser.
In my opinion that must be considered as a clear evidence by a battle witness, just like a statement on a report or a photo.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your statement about anything else ( documentary or photos ) showing that battle timeframe.

We do not have any other evidence of the period 05.56 till 06.03 and it is very easy to be demonstrated.

This is the next work I will like to do with you ( if you like it and agree of course ) on photo Nh 69729 and Nh 69730.

YES, the PoW plot shows that initial course of Bismarck ( plus other course changes too ) but it does not provide any reference to Prinz Eugen track at all.

NO, I am sorry but the Prinz Eugen battle sketch does not show at all Bismarck track.

NO, the Nh 69729 and Nh 69730 do not show Bismarck surpassing Prinz Eugen on port side sailing in parallel.

Nh 69729 shows a side view of Prinz Eugen sailing from east to west ( right to left ) while Bismarck comes south on a probable course 200-220 degrees.
It was taken at 06.07 more or less, it is one photo into a sequence of 3 similar ones.
You need to study Prinz Eugen side railings to understand that photo.
Just compare on my battle map photo 11 with photo 17 and 18.
You will see same Prinz Eugen side railing on the photo, and Bismarck with a very different sailing direction.

Nh 69730 shows Bismarck crossing Prinz Eugen wake ( clearly visible on the photo on the right ) and Prinz Eugen clearing the bow of Bismarck sailing west on course 270.
Both the wake of Prinz Eugen as well as the Prinz Eugen 105 mm flak gun barrels do allow to clearly place that photo into a sequence of 2 available; it was taken at 06.08 more or less.

@ Matthias,

YES, probably the graphic program we used to reproduce the tracks from a drawing did that and not the printing process that could have enlarged the problem only a little bit.

But again, now with a more enlarged dedicated one it will be easy to close this point.

@ Ulrich,

YES, it does, but finding were that small distorsion occurred is not going to resolve our debate with Bob.
My new enlarged map will do the job and provide him what he is looking for.

More everybody will benefit too as they could have more material ( if interested ) to refer and make their own calculations.

So, I will take some hours from my Tirpitz modelling to make it, but Bob do deserve it at this point :D .

I have a favour to ask you : can you post again your colour pic of Ltnt Schmitz-Westerholt famous painture. Thanks


@ all,

Question : is anybody interested on knowing more about how to read the Nh 69729 and Nh 69730 photos in question ?
Those are the photos 18 and 19 on my battle map.

I was just thinking to share on a dedicated post some more information on Prinz Eugen needed to understand those 2 photos, just as we did with Nh 69722 ( photo 8 on my battle map ).

Ciao Antonio :D
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Question : is anybody interested on knowing more about how to read the Nh 69729 and Nh 69730 photos in question ?
Your postings are always welcome Antonio, you know that.
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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

Image

Image

Are these exactly the same? I can't tell for sure.

The color painting was given to Mrs. Lütjens by the Seelriegsleitung
The B/W picture is from the 1942 Nauticus obituary
Ulrich
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Antonio Bonomi
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New map detail

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

@ Bob,

I have sent this detail map also to your e-mail.

With this detail I hope it will be clear now :

1) Bismarck vs Prinz Eugen distance of 2300-2500 meters as shown on photo Nh69722 ( first salvo ) at 05.55.
See Green reference at 05.55.

2) Bismarck course run on Prinz Eufen starboard astern as shown by Ltnt Schmitz-Westerholt painture showing detailed ship positions at 06.00.

3) Torpedo warnings at 06.03 ( first of 3 Torpedo alarms issued by Prinz Eugen GHG ).
See the 3 Blue arrow references.

4) Bismarck and Prinz Eugen west 270 degrees course and relative distances as shown by several photos from 06.04 till 06.06.

5) Bismarck speed used at 30 knots, Prinz Eugen at 27 knots.

6) Prinz Eugen original battle map course track has been used for the various turns.

Here it is :

Image

Always keep in mind that I draw a couple of straight lines for Prinz Eugen and Bismarck from 05.55 till 06.03.
Very likely the 2 German ships made zig-zag to avoid British shells, just as shown by PoW plot for Bismarck for example.
Prinz Eugen surely made much more than Bismarck even if on her battle map Prinz Eugen officers plotted a straight run on course 220 as main course.

@ Ulrich,

many thanks for showing the painture made by Ltnt Schmitz-Westerholt :clap: .

YES, I agree with you, to me are more than one painture version.

Maybe the one in Bundesarchiv - Koblenz is different too.
In Bundesarchiv this painture B/W photo is catalogued like a photo and on the back is written it was provided by Lagemann.
Bundesarchiv reference Nr. Bild 146-1968-015-018.

@ Marcelo,

OK, as I like others to be interested about this battle and related details.

Fresh eyes can see what others are not able to and provide value add.

This is what happened at least on a couple of those photos lately.

I will open a couple of dedicated post on the other 2 photos so we can share a deep analysis like on Nh 69722.

That was a very good post in my opinion, lots of teamwork.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky »

YES, I agree with you, to me are more than one painture version.
I looked at 1942 Nauticus again. It actually says under the picture:
"Skizze [sketch]: Lt. M. A. Schmitz". I think it is charcoal and pencil and the oil painting was copied from it later. The water-color paintings of the HMS Hood sinking were also made from earlier sketches. I don't know what M.A. means here ~ Marinekriegsmalerabteilung? (There was some kind of difference between PK, MPK and MA. His intitials were J.C. Julius Caesar).
Ulrich
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