Are you going to add anything useful to the discussion?Political correctness has been almost like a poison and something of an infringement on the right of freedom of speech.
Bismarck proper name "He" or "She"
Moderator: Bill Jurens
- ontheslipway
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It seems that "foeth" misunderstood some things in the perfectly useful message I wrote. I wonder if "foeth" was aware of Topp's attitude toward his ship's "gender" before I mentioned it, because I do not think any of the others brought it up.
I have contributed probably more useful information to discussions in the other forum than "foeth" has; I have read a number of foeth's postings in the other forum, and probably a few of them in this forum in past months. I have also noticed something of an attitude in those postings.
I have contributed probably more useful information to discussions in the other forum than "foeth" has; I have read a number of foeth's postings in the other forum, and probably a few of them in this forum in past months. I have also noticed something of an attitude in those postings.
- ontheslipway
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Howdy folks. Actually, a posting does not have to be "useful," but it should be relevant. People should be able to say anything, if it has some worth, is relevant and/or useful, interesting, or they can back it up with facts. If you reread this entire thread, "foeth," you will see political correctness mentioned before I mentioned it. Some women today, in fact many women today, just might object to ships being referred to as "she." Unfortunately, people have tried to make major issues out of every little thing during the past 25 years or so, while real issues are being overlooked. A lot of times in my postings, I leave it up to the reader to decide by putting (he, she, it) in parenthesis.
I should have mentioned in my previous posting that "foeth" has contributed some very sharp postings to this and the other forum that some of us participate in. I apologize for not giving him that credit before. I believe he said somewhere, maybe in the other web site, that he is a navel architect or something related to that. He explained a few things about transom sterns, for example.
My area is history, and historical knowledge is worth a lot: knowlege of WWII in general , knowledge of the people who fought in the ships, and overall knowledge of the ships themselves. I have done a fair amount of reading in these matters through the last 6 years or so. This is how I have probably surpassed "foeth" with in the "useful" knowledge department. I am still studying, of course. Actually, this will be my last posting here for 3-4 months, as school (college) has started again.
Back in the future.
I should have mentioned in my previous posting that "foeth" has contributed some very sharp postings to this and the other forum that some of us participate in. I apologize for not giving him that credit before. I believe he said somewhere, maybe in the other web site, that he is a navel architect or something related to that. He explained a few things about transom sterns, for example.
My area is history, and historical knowledge is worth a lot: knowlege of WWII in general , knowledge of the people who fought in the ships, and overall knowledge of the ships themselves. I have done a fair amount of reading in these matters through the last 6 years or so. This is how I have probably surpassed "foeth" with in the "useful" knowledge department. I am still studying, of course. Actually, this will be my last posting here for 3-4 months, as school (college) has started again.
Back in the future.
- ontheslipway
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Hi bb,
my only concern with first your post is (was) that it introduced some sense of morality and conservatism into the discussion, especially by mentioning the restriction of freedom of speech. I think this is the right way to turn a insignificant discussion into a huge debate over the usual or get flamed. It's just that this
Read more about it here, but only because it's fun:
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php
but it can help sharpen your arguments by being aware of it. Anyway, feel free to be more useful . I'll just stand by in case somebody echoes something stupid about tripple shaft layouts again
my only concern with first your post is (was) that it introduced some sense of morality and conservatism into the discussion, especially by mentioning the restriction of freedom of speech. I think this is the right way to turn a insignificant discussion into a huge debate over the usual or get flamed. It's just that this
seems to indicate you're absolutely right and thereby that the rest is just being politically correct (or wrong) and this is why I reacted as I did (red herring). A nuance in your writing, I assume now, and not a form of prejudicial languageNobody should be offended if these ships are referred to as "she." Who in their right mind and genuinely intelligent would be?
Read more about it here, but only because it's fun:
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php
but it can help sharpen your arguments by being aware of it. Anyway, feel free to be more useful . I'll just stand by in case somebody echoes something stupid about tripple shaft layouts again
Last edited by ontheslipway on Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hi all,
Perhaps one final word on this subject.
As an author, I have difficulty using the masculine term to refer to the Bismarck even though some might prefer it. I also have a problem with using the neuter term for the Bismarck because it sounds a bit degrading and lacking in character. I therefore like to take poetic license and use the more common female term for the Bismarck. I may not always have followed this protocol, but it is the one that I prefer.
Bob
Perhaps one final word on this subject.
As an author, I have difficulty using the masculine term to refer to the Bismarck even though some might prefer it. I also have a problem with using the neuter term for the Bismarck because it sounds a bit degrading and lacking in character. I therefore like to take poetic license and use the more common female term for the Bismarck. I may not always have followed this protocol, but it is the one that I prefer.
Bob
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Bismarck, He or She
I always referred to the Bismarck as she growing up. I've been a Bismarck follower since I was in middle school. I'm now 42 years old. But once I started researching my script and found out that Kapitian Zur See Ernst Lindemann wanted the Bismarck called he because of the ships massive size, that's alli needed. The Bismarck is HE!!! enough said.
Lindemann called it "er"(masculin) because of his function on the ship. Today in german we say "die" Bismarck or "das" Schlachtschiff Bismarck.
If we say"das" Schlachtschiff Bismarck, the wort "das" is only for the wort Schlachtschiff= das Schlachtschiff. But the names of the the ships alone without Schlachtschiff are Feminin. We say, die Bismarck, die Prinz Eugen, die Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Blücher etc.
If we say"das" Schlachtschiff Bismarck, the wort "das" is only for the wort Schlachtschiff= das Schlachtschiff. But the names of the the ships alone without Schlachtschiff are Feminin. We say, die Bismarck, die Prinz Eugen, die Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Blücher etc.
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Re: Bismarck proper name "He" or "She"
All seaworthy vessels are referred to "she", whether the boat is provided with a female or male name. I prefer she. Makes me think of the ship as the mother who protects its crew.
Jagdboot
Jagdboot
Re: Bismarck proper name "He" or "She"
I'm with Lindemann. These magnificent ships had no vaginas, nor had they balls--except maybe metaphorically. If he wanted to call a magnificent fighting machine such as this Bismarck 'he', I'm very happy to oblige him. And have done so as long as I've been posting here.
Re: Bismarck proper name "He" or "She"
No matter how ship is big or powerfull its always discribed as she
Re: Bismarck proper name "He" or "She"
Most of ships have sister-ships so its all SHE
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Re: Bismarck proper name "He" or "She"
in all german war diaries the capital ships were referred as "das Schlachtschiff xxx" or "der Kreuzer yyy". If the ships type is omitted, the ship is named usually as
"Bismarck" or "Admiral Graf Spee"... without pronoun.
ther are two eceptions I know about
the first is the designation of Kapt. z.S. Lindemann according Baron Müllenheim Rechberg as he named the Bismarck as "der Bismarck"
and the following document
Vortrag Ob.d.M. beim Führer am 6.6.1941 auf dem Berghof
Verlauf der Bismarck operation...
"Bismarck" or "Admiral Graf Spee"... without pronoun.
ther are two eceptions I know about
the first is the designation of Kapt. z.S. Lindemann according Baron Müllenheim Rechberg as he named the Bismarck as "der Bismarck"
and the following document
Vortrag Ob.d.M. beim Führer am 6.6.1941 auf dem Berghof
Verlauf der Bismarck operation...
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!