Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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alecsandros
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:42 am

"straddle ladder" was the second full salvo in both cases.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:59 am

Hi Alec,
yes but in both cases, it was followed by a 'Gabelgruppe,' 3 semi-salvos.

So a total of 28 shots on Hood and 20 on PoW unti 5:59.

I understand 8 full salvo in total unti around 6:01:30


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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:59 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hi Alec,
yes but in both cases, it was followed by a Gabelgruppe, 3 semi-salvos.

So a total of 28 shots on Hood and 20 on PoW unti 5:59.

I understand 8 full salvo in total unti around 6:01:30


Bye, Alberto
Where are you reading that ?

I read: 2 full salvoes on Hood, then immediately order to change target. 2 full salvoes to Prince of Wales, straddled at 5:59. Then rapid fire on Prince of WAles.
So total 4 full salvoes (maximum 32 shots if all salvoes were perfect) in 4 minutes.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:21 am

Please see German text. Vollsalve and Gabelgruppe.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:32 am

What is wrong with the translation ?

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:42 am

Hi Alec,
I can be wrong but Vollsalve is a 8 gun salvo and Gabellgruppe is a 3 semi-salvos group 400 meters different in range (translated in English as bracketing group).

My understanding is that Germans always open fire with a Vollsalve and then fire a Gabellgruppe, as per established procedure. PG repeated the Vollsalve against Hood as the result of the first Vollsalve was uncertain.


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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:49 am

As far as I understand the text, Jaspers comments on the effects of the 1st and 2nd full salvoes against Hood. He uses the word "wiederholten", which means "reapeat of"....
So he repeated the Vollsalve against Hood. Further he describes the effect of this (second) salvo, including damaging hits being seen on board HMS HOod. This second salvo "bracketed" HMS Hood... Then , immediately, he was charged with changing target...

Perhaps somebody with more GErman knowledge can assist...

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:21 am

Further on the rate of fire problem: Prince of Wales consumed 27x 356mm rounds in the time interval 5:55 - 6:00, in 9 different "salvos" (partial salvos of course). [salvos 5,6,7,8,9,10, 11,12,13 on the PRince of Wales salvo map].

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:55 am

alecsandros wrote: Perhaps somebody with more GErman knowledge can assist...
Alberto is right. 2 full salvos + 3 semi-salvos (4 hm Gabelgruppe= obere Grenzsalve, Mitte (Standsalve), untere Grenzsalve). 8+8+3*4=28
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:40 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote:
alecsandros wrote: Perhaps somebody with more GErman knowledge can assist...
Alberto is right. 2 full salvos + 3 semi-salvos (4 hm Gabelgruppe= obere Grenzsalve, Mitte (Standsalve), untere Grenzsalve). 8+8+3*4=28
And what caused the damage he is describing ? the second salvo + 3 semi salvos ?

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:19 pm

Jasper says that two shells of "untere Grenzsalve" (semi salvo) were short and he couldn't see the other two shells. They were hidden respectively "verschluckt" (absorbed) by the target. Maybe one of the two missing shells caused the damage.
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:24 pm

... Interesting, thank you Marc.

Alberto - you were right :whistle:

What about the salvos fired against PRince of Wales before rapid fire ?

I'm asking because it's hard to squeeze so many ranging salvos inside a 4 minute interval (5:55 - 5:59), because time of flight of 203mm shells was ~ 38 seconds at 21km and 36seconds at 20km... adding some seconds for observing fall of shot and making corrections... each salvo would require at least 42-45 seconds or so to be fired.

So if vollsalve1 was fired at exactly 5:55:00 (perfect case), vollsalve2 could be fired at 5:55:45, and semisalvo1+2 (of Gabelgrupe) no sooner then 5:56:27. semisalvo3 required reloading of some turret group, at least 15 seconds... and be fired after small correctinos at 5:56:45 at the soonest. Semisalvo1 and 2 would strike water at around 5:57:00, and semisalvo3 at around 5:57:20 (with 1 one hit).

As Jasper receives the order to switch target , he does so and puts the 8 x 203mm guns on the left target.That takes some seconds Let's asume a very minimal time interval of 30 seconds after the probable hit on Hood. . Again he fires 2 Vollsalves , this time versus Prince of Wales. First vollsalve exits the muzzles at 5:57:50, and strikes water around Prince of Wales around 5:58:20. Minimal corrections are made for second vollsalve , which exits the muzzles at 5:58:25, and strikes water around Prince of Wales around 5:58:55.

He says he straddled Prince of Wales at 5:59 and opened rapid fire. Did he straddle with the second Volsalve, or with another gabelgruppen, as that would be very very difficult to squeeze in the time remaining ? [and I started with the perfect 5:55:00...]

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:47 pm

Alecsandros wrote: "....Again he fires 2 Vollsalves , this time versus Prince of Wales...."
Ciao Alec,
from the PG KTB it looks like Jasper fired 1 Vollsalve against PoW (apparently no problem to spot the fall of shots this time) and then directly the Gabellgruppe (3 semi-salvos, in German it's "Hektogruppe" I just guess :oops: ) until 5:59 (see here)
PG _firing_PoW.jpg
It's quite tight timing, but I think that during the Vollsalve+Gabellgruppe you don't need necessarily to wait for the fall of shell, it's just a procedure that you follow and you can therefore fire at max possible rate, then you decide what to do based on the result of the initial Vollsalve+Gabellgruppe. My 2 cents opinion, of course.


I would just say that 8 full salvo until 6:00:30 (PoW turning towards PG) are comparable with the 5 to 6 full salvos of Bismarck (possibly 5+ a semi salvo ???) and the simultaneous 11 semi-salvos of PoW (from semi-salvo 5 to 15 included).


What I find interesting is that my "favorite" British witness (the one I find to be the most reliable and acute observer), Rowell, seems to confirm that Bismarck too started with a Vollsalve of the 4 turrets (if this is the case, followed probably by the Gabellgruppe):
"Lieutenant Commander G.W.Rowell said:
".......Shortly after "Prince of Wales" first salvo "Bismarck" opened fire with all four turrets. The Bismarck's opening salvo fell very close to the "Hood." I think, but I am not sure, that it was just over......."(for his full testimony, please see almost at the end of pag.22 of this same thread)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by tommy303 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:38 pm

Hello Alberto,

Normally in opening fire it was usual in the Kriegsmarine to fire a deflection salvo with all main battery guns--i.e., in Bismarck's and Prinz Eugen's cases, all four turrets. This initial salvo or broadside was intended to test deflection---check fall of shot for line, rather than range, since cold gun barrels tended to fire short of indicated range anyways. This deflection shoot, it was felt at the time, would warm the barrels up and burn off any oils or moisture in the barrels so the following salvos could be used for ranging.

I might add though, that more current knowledge seems to indicate that it actually takes at least three rounds per gun, or more, to reach optimum temperature for ranging.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:42 pm

Hi Tommy,
thanks for clarifying.
Therefore, I was wrong, because, in principle, it should be necessary to wait the fall of shells of the Vollsalve to correct deflection before firing the Gabellgruppe for range.....

Bye, alberto
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