Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:13 am

Hello everybody,

who is assuming that the 2 different salvoes, ... the Bismarck of 3 visible shells landing close to PoW on her smoke ( 1, 2 and 3 on my pics ) , ... and the 2 of the PoW fired by the Y turret in local control ( A and B on my pics ) ... have been landing on the exact same moment and consequently their dimension ( height ) is comparable, ... is just making his own assumption and it is pretty hard to be demonstrated only with a photo.

I do suggest to those persons to carefully look at the PG film landing single shells carefully and see how the event does materialize, ... how long the water column remained on the air and how progressively is collapsing back on the water.

Who is assuming that it has been Fritz Otto Busch the first one to try to completely caption that photo in a German text, ... the one Herr Nillson provided, ... is making again his own assumption, ... :wink:

Sometimes to re-construct something you need to carefully research for many years, ... and not to blindly beleive at the first thing you can read on a photo caption.

It takes much more than that and this event re-construction took a bit longer than that time ... :think:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:20 pm

Hello All,

Obviously the determination to discuss NH 6973 will not die down soon. Because of the curvature of the earth (not including any cold water mirage effects) from PG's main deck the "horizon" is only about 10,000 yds away. Therefore wild shots from PoW might well appear, as here, apparently close to the horizon. PoW is probably at 18,000 yds plus by this point, steaming at 20 plus knots (speed loss in extreme turns) directly away from Bismarck, which is why her hull cannot be identified. She is already hull-down.


BTW whilst considering how close the horizon is, we should consider Claude Aylwin's periscope, his only device for seeing how bad salvo 19 is, and which he supposedly uses to accurately position his next single gun salvo 5 seconds later. In fact, from his low viewpoint, at the relevant distance and with the smokescreen in his way can he even see Bismarck?


This unrealistic allocation of the two single shot splashes and the film that joins them is the whole basis of Antonio's "analysis" , his timetable and ultimately his attempt to besmirch Leach's character, and depends on the utterly fantastic idea that PoW could place two shells so accurately after missing so spectacularly moments before, using the completely inadequate equipment at Aylwin's disposal.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:43 pm

Hello everybody,

the NH 69731 correct timing as well as the PG film with the last 2 PoW salvoes in local control correct correlation took a lot of time and analysis long time ago, and it obviously are the center of the battle and the events occurred before and after it.

It took a lot of work to make it right, ... and it will be not so easy to anybody to try to demonstrate that it is not right, ... because it is correct.

Some tried already, ... years ago, .. and miserably failed, ... as obvious, ... being the evidence available fully supporting my work.

Not only the photos and the film, but also the many reports and the available battle maps on both sides.

What Y turret did was described to me by Erminio Bagnasco being him a Naval Artillery Officer, ... he did it starting from the photo Nh 69731 until the last salvo, ... but you will read this description on my future publication

Here an example of the correlation with 2 Prinz Eugen original maps and the PoW original gunnery plot where an " X " is marking precisely when that local control salvoes started being fired, ... just after 06:03 of course, ... so a perfect match before Prinz Eugen was turning to starboard.

DS_battle_time_06_03_45_01.jpeg
DS_battle_time_06_03_45_01.jpeg (123.52 KiB) Viewed 601 times


The all 3 local control salvoes ( 19th, 20th and 21st ) have been perfectly correlated with time, photos and film by me long time ago.
The official maps and the available reports on both sides do provide a perfect match.
End of the story.

More ...

What Capt Leach did and why he did it is written on his report, ... and it was not correctly reported by Adm Tovey dispatches, ... either the time of his retreat ( 06:03 versus the invented 06:13, ... as well as the Y turret jamming event occurred after the retreat order and turn and not before as Adm Tovey invented on his dispatches. The Royal Navy Admiralty confirmed this, ... in writing on 1948, ... not me.


Someone is better realize the above, ... finally ... just like he is better realize that it was not me ( I was not even born ) the one who wanted a board of inquiry ( and a consequent Court Martial call ) for Leach and Wake-Walker, ... but Adm Sir D. Pound, the Royal Navy First Sea Lord, ... on May 1941.

This will not change no matter what photo caption or event re-construction one can try to drive, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:14 pm

On the fly:
Greenland battle. "Prince of Wales" sails away. On the far left: Heavy smoldering debris from "Hood" which were thrown far to the left during the explosion (boats, rafts, plane?). In the middle: Cloud of smoke at "Hood's" sinking position: burning oil. To the right: "Prince of Wales" under fire of the two German ships, impacts of the 38 cm of the Bismarck ", on the right of it lighter muzzle smoke of the guns of the Englishman, who is also smoldering black by hits and sails off to to the east.
@wadinga

Regarding the Hood caption read:

http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/debriefing4.html

Pay attention to the direction of the flash :o
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:47 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

thanks.

I do not know in which book F.O. Busch wrote that one, ... but I think it make sense now to compare that caption text, ... with this one :

Linker pfeil : stark qualmende trummer von Hood, die bei der explosion weit nach links heraus geschleudert worden waren ( Flugzeuge oder boote ).

Mitteler pfeil : Die untergangsstelle von Hood, an der ein grosser olbrand wutet.

Rechter pfeil : Prince of Wales im feuer der beiden deutschen schiffe.

Zwei aufschlage heben sich deutlich vom dunklen hintergrund ab.

Rechts von ihnen der hellere mundungsqualm, der nun, da der gegner abgedreht hat, nach rechts sich vom englischen Schiff lost.
Of course your kind help on translating them both and provide us the difference in terms of statements meaning between them will be of a great help on realizing how those photo captions evolved thru the years.

This is real value add, ... helping the historical research, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:01 pm

Left arrow: Heavy smoldering debris from "Hood" which were thrown far to the left during the explosion (planes or boats).
Middle arrow: "Hood's" sinking position on which an oil fire is raging.
Right arrow: "Prince of Wales" under fire of the two German ships. Two impacts are silhouetted against the dark background. On the right of them lighter muzzle smoke, which, because the enemy has turned away, separates in a rightward direction from the English ship.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:11 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

many thanks.

The difference is obviously on the fact that the above caption is a bit more clear about what is showed on the photo, especially on the right side of it.

The 2 fall of shot with a dark smoke background are clearly stated.

Anyway, now it only takes some easy logic to understand what is what about the shells we are looking at between the 3 Bismarck ones and the 2 of the PoW.
NH69731_arrows.jpg
NH69731_arrows.jpg (96.85 KiB) Viewed 560 times

Here the captioning :

HOOD 1 :

Left arrow: Heavy smoldering debris from "Hood" which were thrown far to the left during the explosion (planes or boats).
Linker pfeil : stark qualmende trummer von Hood, die bei der explosion weit nach links heraus geschleudert worden waren ( Flugzeuge oder boote ).

HOOD 2 :

Middle arrow: "Hood's" sinking position on which an oil fire is raging.
Mitteler pfeil : Die untergangsstelle von Hood, an der ein grosser olbrand wutet.


POW and the 2 SHELLS :

Right arrow: "Prince of Wales" under fire of the two German ships.
Two impacts are silhouetted against the dark background.
On the right of them lighter muzzle smoke, which, because the enemy has turned away, separates in a rightward direction from the English ship ( lost = Hood ).

Rechter pfeil : Prince of Wales im feuer der beiden deutschen schiffe.
Zwei aufschlage heben sich deutlich vom dunklen hintergrund ab.
Rechts von ihnen der hellere mundungsqualm, der nun, da der gegner abgedreht hat, nach rechts sich vom englischen Schiff lost.


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:33 pm

Err, no, the lighter muzzle smoke has to be the right of PoW not to the left.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:41 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

Yes I agree, … in fact the PoW smoke screen is to the right of the 2 fall of shot and not of the PoW under the German fire.

That in fact is exactly the way I read it.

What is important is the clear identification of the 2 PoW shells against the background, ... the impact of their fall of shot, … well separated from the PoW under fire from the Bismarck.

The last caption I have proposed is a bit more clear than the Busch one … :wink:

Anyway, … now all should be clear enough for everybody.


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:00 pm

Hello All,

Whatever Busch or somebody else wrote:
This is the original caption from the Bundesarchiv for NH 69731:
Die Hood ist gesunken (zwei Rauchwolken links). Die deutschen Schiffe feuern auf die schwer beschädigt ablaufende, schwarz qualmende Prince of Wales, hinter deren Deck Aufschläge sichtbar sind (Teleaufnahme)

Note the original photographer even pointed out he had screwed his telephoto lens onto his Leica. Perhaps Marc would translate this too, and we can avoid a side track into what Busch might have written subsequently.
Subsequent interpretations, are of little more value than those we might make today. Smoke can't be blown upwind.

The all 3 local control salvoes ( 19th, 20th and 21st ) have been perfectly correlated with time, photos and film by me long time ago.
Only to your own satisfaction and purely to deliver your required conclusions. Admiral Santarini would undoubtedly calculate the chances of Claude Aylwin doing what you claim as one in a million. (Maybe even one in a googolplex).


As for Matrosengefreiter Georg Herzog:
I was sleeping in compartment XI when, at 0500 hours, the alarm sounded. We were awakened [by a person] since the alarm device had malfunctioned. I saw a piercing flame (a flash) astern of port as I came topside; I later found out was from the sinking "Hood". While I was proceeding to my gun on the aircraft deck a shell hit a launch's bow and burst through it. I don't know where the shell detonated. Splinters flew about [and] one of them hit Bootsmannmaat Zeidler on the head.
Does anybody else think PoW hit Bismarck after Hood blew up?

Matrosengefreiter Georg Herzog has remembered things in the wrong order. He had just woken up. Also how long does it take to get from compartment XI to the upper deck. Maybe the fatal shot was fired over Bismarck's port quarter just as shown in the film and on the Baron's 1990 map.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:44 pm

Hello everybody,

… Busch or somebody else wrote, … it also depends who was that somebody else … and where he wrote that statement too … :wink:

Anyway, the photo Nh 69731 is now clear with the PoW first salvo on local control of 2 shells, … the 19th, .. well visible and in synch with the Prinz Eugen still sailing on course 220° at 06:03 and 30 seconds, ... not having started her first starboard turn yet.

This is obviously confirmed both by Kpt Brinkmann narrative as well as the Prinz Eugen battle map track and related timing.

In case of needs also by Ltnt Reimann, … during his missed PG torpedo launch explanation to Vize Adm Hubert Schmundt ( see the dedicated thread and the PG torpedo map ).

More, referencing the PG official battle map and her own track, we can easily now follow thru with the Prinz Eugen first starboard turn well visible, … at 06:03 and 45 seconds, ... and close this demonstration exercise … with the last 2 single shells from PoW, ... and the case is definitively closed.

As an additional confirmation, ... on the film subsequent sequences as well as on the available photos taken after the film end, ... there is NO other fall of shells close to the Bismarck until the end of the battle at 06:09.

To remain on this thread subject, … now everybody can count the Bismarck fired salvoes after the 06:03 and 30 seconds battle time.

Elementary, ... simple and elementary, ... :wink:


Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3908
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:53 pm

wadinga wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:00 pm
Hello All,

Whatever Busch or somebody else wrote:
This is the original caption from the Bundesarchiv for NH 69731:
Die Hood ist gesunken (zwei Rauchwolken links). Die deutschen Schiffe feuern auf die schwer beschädigt ablaufende, schwarz qualmende Prince of Wales, hinter deren Deck Aufschläge sichtbar sind (Teleaufnahme)

Note the original photographer even pointed out he had screwed his telephoto lens onto his Leica. Perhaps Marc would translate this too, and we can avoid a side track into what Busch might have written subsequently.
Subsequent interpretations, are of little more value than those we might make today. Smoke can't be blown upwind.

The all 3 local control salvoes ( 19th, 20th and 21st ) have been perfectly correlated with time, photos and film by me long time ago.
Only to your own satisfaction and purely to deliver your required conclusions. Admiral Santarini would undoubtedly calculate the chances of Claude Aylwin doing what you claim as one in a million. (Maybe even one in a googolplex).


As for Matrosengefreiter Georg Herzog:
I was sleeping in compartment XI when, at 0500 hours, the alarm sounded. We were awakened [by a person] since the alarm device had malfunctioned. I saw a piercing flame (a flash) astern of port as I came topside; I later found out was from the sinking "Hood". While I was proceeding to my gun on the aircraft deck a shell hit a launch's bow and burst through it. I don't know where the shell detonated. Splinters flew about [and] one of them hit Bootsmannmaat Zeidler on the head.
Does anybody else think PoW hit Bismarck after Hood blew up?

Matrosengefreiter Georg Herzog has remembered things in the wrong order. He had just woken up. Also how long does it take to get from compartment XI to the upper deck. Maybe the fatal shot was fired over Bismarck's port quarter just as shown in the film and on the Baron's 1990 map.


All the best

wadinga
Salvo 13, which was the last recorded 14in straddle was fired at ~0559:40 as per the salvo chart. So I think it was fired about 2mins after Hood blew up.

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3908
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:21 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:11 pm
Hello everybody,

@
Here the captioning :

HOOD 1 :

Left arrow: Heavy smoldering debris from "Hood" which were thrown far to the left during the explosion (planes or boats).
Linker pfeil : stark qualmende trummer von Hood, die bei der explosion weit nach links heraus geschleudert worden waren ( Flugzeuge oder boote ).

Not possible as there's no wind shear of the supposed smoke.

Byron Angel
Senior Member
Posts: 1061
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 am

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Byron Angel » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:23 pm

Fiat justitia - After examining several iterations of the photo in question posted here, it is evident that the imagery is too indistinct to fix splash locations relative to horizon line with necessary confidence. Since the three small and distant shell splashes on the far right of the image must logically belong to Bismarck, the two large shell splashes displayed right center in the photo must be from PoW.

However, to describe these two shots from PoW as having landed "close" to Bismarck is not IMO justifiable in a gunnery sense.

B

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3908
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:23 pm

Byron Angel wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:23 pm
Fiat justitia - After examining several iterations of the photo in question posted here, it is evident that the imagery is too indistinct to fix splash locations relative to horizon line with necessary confidence. Since the three small and distant shell splashes on the far right of the image must logically belong to Bismarck, the two large shell splashes displayed right center in the photo must be from PoW.

However, to describe these two shots from PoW as having landed "close" to Bismarck is not IMO justifiable in a gunnery sense.

B
I'm not really sure the image actually shows any shell splashes near PoW - the quality of the reproduction is pretty poor and it's a human failing to make false pattern recognitions.

Post Reply