Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[alecsandros]

Most ingenious but you are assuming they fire at precisely the same moment so Bismarck's shells overtake PG's in the air. Our resident expert(?) on statistics can tell you how unlikely this is.

Prinz Eugen fired first broadside of 4+4 guns in 3-4 seconds (from first muzzle flash of the first gun to last muzzle flash of the last gun), therefore time of flight (considering first muzzle flash as t0) would be t0+36 seconds for first gun, and t0+36+4seconds for last gun. (1)

Bismarck fired first broadside of 4+4 guns in 3-4 seconds (same methodology), therefore time of flight woulb be t1+32seconds for first gun and t1+32seconds+4seconds for last gun. (2)

From (1) and (2), you see that t1 and t0 can be 8 seconds apart (i.e. Prinz Eugen starting to fire at 5:55:30 and Bismarck starting to fire at 5:55:38), and still Bismarck's broadside can still interfere with Prinz Eugen's broadisde (in terms of spotting the water columns). (3)

The water columns themselves, contrary to what I expected, had a very long lifetime of approx 5 seconds (considering reaching and keeping max height), and of approx 10-12seconds* (considering lifetime from initial waterspout errupting into the air and up to the final spout falling back into the sea) (4)

From (3) and (4), you see that Bismarck's broadside could have been fired up to 18 seconds AFTER Prinz Eugen's broadside, and her errupting waterspouts still hindering Jasper's observation of own (Prinz Eugen) fall of shot.

* I thought they existed for 2-3seconds max, but watching the Prinz Eugen film 2:45 - 2:55, we clearly see a shot from Prince of Wales producing a 10 seconds waterspout+several seconds of sea spray remaining above the place where the shell fell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU76vVM6lWY

[wadinga]

Hello Alecsandros,

From one of Antonio's postings earlier in this same thread:

And then “Bismarck” fires, and the painter runs across to the starboard bridge wing, because the battleship is in a slight starboard staggered position in relation to “Prinz Eugen”.

He [the painter] watches the unfolding picture of power that our flagship projects: clad in giant clouds of powder vapors which rapidly swirl aft because of flank speed, its barrels directed toward the enemy, the rangefinders and the entire superstructure illuminated by the fiery bright firing flashes.

One, two salvoes burst away, then the specialist [painter] hurries back to capture a view of the impacts at the enemy.

And right in the middle of his walk, right behind the small protective screen that is provided for the signal crew of the watch, he is slammed with sheer brutal force against the mast: our own turrets have opened fire !

and from you:

Jasper clearly states in the Prinz Eugen diary that "I received permission to fire at 4:55 (5:55) from the bridge, and immediately commenced firing a full salvo

Even in your "enhanced" ingenious version, the junior ship has to fire before the Flagship. Very bad etiquette. Also unlikely given the command chain and order transmission.


Aren't you a little bit curious about what it is the hidden document Alberto has blabbed about? Or are you on the "need to know" list already?


There is still no certainty about when Bismarck started shooting, or when she ended, and it is clear there was considerable variation in her rate of fire given only 93 shells expended and the rate depicted in the film.

All the best

wadinga


All the best

wadinga

[alecsandros]

Even in your "enhanced" ingenious version, the junior ship has to fire before the Flagship. Very bad etiquette. Also unlikely given the command chain and order transmission.

I did not make an enhanced version of anything. You asked a question about Jasper seeing his own shots "obscured". I simply wrote an exampe of what could explain the "obscureness".

I have no idea what is the letter you mention. We'll probably know more when the first book hits the print.

[wadinga]

Hello Alecsandros,

I did not make an enhanced version of anything.

I was complimenting you on your analysis. You found a way of explaining things, but a far more straightforward way is that Bismarck started firing before Prinz Eugen, just as the flagship should. Also that confusion over the target designation, and any concentration method delayed Jasper's firing relative to Bismarck. He was not told who to shoot at, or when, so as to avoid the splash confusion you have considered. Brinkmann wrote comments in the margin of the KTB copy which are apparently unintelligible. A readable comment by some other handwriting criticises Jasper for not recognising attack by capital ships.

However:

Do you condone A & A withholding information from the Forum?

We'll probably know more when the first book hits the print.

If it perpetrates the baseless defamation and fantastical Conspiracy theory espoused here, hopefully it will never make it to print.


All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: "There is still no certainty about when Bismarck started shooting, or when she ended, and it is clear there was considerable variation in her rate of fire given only 93 shells expended and the rate depicted in the film. "

There is no certainty even that the sun will raise tomorrow.... but the PG KTB gives a precise timing for open fire of both ships (05:55, confirmed in all German official reports) and there is no reason at all why Bismarck should have ceased fire (unnoticed) before PG (06:09, confirmed also by the last salvo photo, with PG finally on starboard side of BS, as per Antonio's reconstruction and as per the "new original" map published in Patrick Toussaint's book http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 795#p80577 ).

The RoF of Bismarck certainly varied (as PoW one did, being twice faster between 5:59:30 and 6:01 than between 5:55 and 5:56:30 ), but never stopped for a long time (possibly just avoiding to fire during the 30 seconds turns), as everybody would have noticed any longer pause. Other theories are pure baseless speculations.


Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: "There is still no certainty about when Bismarck started shooting, or when she ended, and it is clear there was considerable variation in her rate of fire given only 93 shells expended and the rate depicted in the film. "

There is no certainty even that the sun will raise tomorrow.... but the PG KTB gives a precise timing for open fire of both ships (05:55, confirmed in all German official reports) and there is no reason at all why Bismarck should have ceased fire (unnoticed) before PG (06:09, confirmed also by the last salvo photo, with PG finally on starboard side of BS, as per Antonio's reconstruction and as per the "new original" map published in Patrick Toussaint's book http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 795#p80577 ).

The RoF of Bismarck certainly varied (as PoW one did, being twice faster between 5:59:30 and 6:01 than between 5:55 and 5:56:30 ), but never stopped for a long time (possibly just avoiding to fire during the 30 seconds turns), as everybody would have noticed any longer pause. Other theories are pure baseless speculations.


Bye, Alberto

The only precise time given by PE's war diary is 0601:20 for Hood's loss. The other times are crude approximations.

We have timing almost down to the second via PoW's GAR but we don't know how the times given in PE's war diary match up to the GAR timing.

There's a whole thread to discuss this:
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7736

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

Dunmunro wrote: "The other times are crude approximations"

No they are "annoying" approximations for a hooligan, but very precise timings, written both in PG KTB and in Schmalenbach GAR + confirmd in all German official report.....
Stop inventing your own interpretation just to troll the forum again and again. Your low game is clear enough, unable to present your reconstruction based on this speculation, unable to calculate PoW effective # shells /minute and mostly unable to accept what is the official documents if they are not written in...English....

Even Patrick Toussaint (apparently not very good at drawing his own battlemap a ssomeone here....http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 795#p80577 ) chose Antonio's reconstruction for his new book, only these deniers at any cost are refusing what has been demonstrated already in 2005, without any reason and with the only intent to justify two timid officers.


Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

The only really accurate timing we have of the action is via PoW's salvo chart which was recorded via her AFCT printer. There is some evidence, via her war diary that PE's similar recorder partially failed.

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 972#p55432

Jasper clearly states in the Prinz Eugen diary that "I received permission to fire at 4:55 (5:55) from the bridge, and immediately commenced firing a full salvo[...]"

We know that Bismarck fired before PE because Brinkmann states that.

Schmalenbach* states that Hood had fired 4 or 5 salvos before Bismarck and PE opened fire.

Hood's 4th salvo would have been fired at ~0554 and the 5th salvo at ~0555 if they continue to respect PoW's salvo time sector. Thus we have a 50-50 chance that Schmalenbach is stating that Bismarck fired prior to 0554.


*Schmalenbach's 3rd paragraph begins: "I do not recall anymore..." WTF??? When was this report written and why has his memory faded?

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

Dunmunro wrote: "The other times are crude approximations"

No they are "annoying" approximations for a hooligan, but very precise timings, written both in PG KTB and in Schmalenbach GAR + confirmd in all German official report.....

Maybe Italian engineers consider timing in one minute intervals to be very precise but most of the rest of the world doesn't think that way. Once again your logic leads to total collapse...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

when we will see Mr.Dunmunro battle and salvo reconstruction we will discuss.
For the time being 5:55 is the earliest timing for BS open fire if Mr.Dunmunro doesn't want to make Bismarck firing far more slowly than PoW.


Bye, Alberto


P.S: I don't even answer this poor cretin repeated insinuation about Italian engineers and (bridge) collapses. I just remind him that some people lost their life in a tragedy and that his idiocy in mocking at this tragedy is showing to everybody his tiny human quality. I understand he is angry for having been unable to do "elementary school calculations" but his ignorance is his problem, not mine.

[dunmunro]

Even in your "enhanced" ingenious version, the junior ship has to fire before the Flagship. Very bad etiquette. Also unlikely given the command chain and order transmission.

I did not make an enhanced version of anything. You asked a question about Jasper seeing his own shots "obscured". I simply wrote an exampe of what could explain the "obscureness".

I have no idea what is the letter you mention. We'll probably know more when the first book hits the print.

Brinkmann stated that Bismarck fired before PE. Your own analysis shows that Bismarck's salvo would fall well before PE's. The probability is that Bismarck has actually fired more than one salvo prior to PE opening fire.

[Alberto Virtuani]

This Dunmunro is a blatantly poor cretin (repeating infamous anti-nationalistic insinuations mocking at a tragedy), not able to accept documents if not written in his language.

he wrote: "Maybe Italian engineers consider timing in one minute intervals to be very precise but most of the rest of the world doesn't think that way"

Italian "engineers" were building bridges when his compatriots were not yet able to build a hut and were eating only raw meat.....

I hope this anti-nationalistic insinuation will be sanctioned.


Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

when we will see Mr.Dunmunro battle and salvo reconstruction we will discuss.
For the time being 5:55 is the earliest timing for BS open fire if Mr.Dunmunro doesn't want to make Bismarck firing far more slowly than PoW.


Bye, Alberto


I understand he is angry for having been unable to do "elementary school calculations" but his ignorance is his problem, not mine.

The only thing you've proven is that you're a buffoon. Your claim that PE's timing is "precise" is just hilarious and I fall down in laughter when you make ignoramus comments like that.

As I stated the only precise time given in PE's war diary is 0601:20 but you completely ignore that.

[Alberto Virtuani]

You stated only provoking idiocy.

Almost all times are given in minutes without seconds in both English and German reports. They may be approximate, but 05:55 is NOT 05:53.

I understand you are drinking too much this evening and I will leave you to your bottle, old insulting drunkard.


Bye, Alberto

[northcape]

We'll probably know more when the first book hits the print.

If it perpetrates the baseless defamation and fantastical Conspiracy theory espoused here, hopefully it will never make it to print.


All the best

wadinga

I think this is completely irrelevant in any way. Two people have a (conspiracy) theory which states that two or more officers where cowards/behaved wrongly (77 years ago, in a different country) and should have been brought (77 years ago) to a court martial, but it did not happen because of a cover-up. Now, it is their complete right to think so.

However, the fact is that 77 years ago there was no court martial, so in the end the people involved at this time were not convinced that the officers were cowards/behaved wrongly. Otherwise there would have been a court martial. I would argue that the people involved 77 years ago were a bit better informed* than our two armchair-judges from Milano with a rather crude understanding of evaluating historical information and physics/maths.

Many people misunderstand A&A's mission as rewriting historical facts. Much more, it is a mission to impose their opinions (e.g. there should have been a court martial) at everybody else at all costs. This might seems identical, but don't get mistaken - the fact is what has happened (or what not) and not what one would *like* to have happened. Now if the *wish* from two fanatic Italian gentlemen, 77 years late, has more weight on the judgement then the investigations and actions from the actually involved people at the time - I let you decide what you think is more appropriate.

So let them be happy to publish their books with their opinions. Step outside the bubble and realize what that episode could means in a larger historical view - little to absolutely nothing. Even if we would take their soft version ("sugar coating" of reports) as granted, what relevant new things can we learn from this about the Royal Navy, about the Denmark Street Battle, about the Bismarck Episode, about warfare in the Atlantic? Nothing, nada, zero. If we would have learned for sure that Bismarck fired first, or PE fired first, what would be so exciting about that? Of course many of us are fanatics and are really extremely interested in these details, but nonetheless please don't over-estimate the size of that community. I doubt very much that this would be killer headline for another book on the Bismarck saga.

* "informed" means having access to relevant information and being able to put that information in right context.