Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

Captain John Catteral Leach wrote on his report what we can see on the PoW maps as well as on the PoW gunnery report plot :

It now seems probable that the enemy turned away at the same time as " Prince of Wales " and about two enemy salvos were seen short during this period...

It is obvious and logic, ... mostly proven and reinforced by the Admiralty ( Pitcairn-Jones on the Battle Summary Nr 5 - RN Admiralty Historical Office on 1948 ) that we are talking about 06:03 battle time more or less, ... surely not 06:13 of course, ... which everybody knows by now was Adm Tovey " invention " for the necessary and demonstrated shameful " Cover Up ".

Only a very " creative " type of person, ... a kind like R. Winklareth type of guy with his reversed photo theory, ... can even think to anticipate the Bismarck turn away battle time during the Hood engagement battle time frame, ... so before 06:00, ... given what we have as evidence on both sides on reports, maps, photos, prints ... and film.

Anyway, ... my base work is out since 2005, ... a new version is almost ready and will be published in the future, ... lets see what will come out, ... before our next work will see the print.

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello All,

From McMullen's notes:

Both of these were spotted as short, and salvoes 13 and 14 were fired as a regaining ladder up: 13 appeared to straddle, 14 went over, and a further zigzag was fired with salvoes 15 and 16 about salvo 13's range; both of these appeared as short and salvoes 17 and 18 were fired as an up regaining ladder. The fall of shot of these salvoes is not certain, but it is probably that they went short; evidence of the Rate Officer's observations and settings and the fall of shot points to the fact that the enemy started altering away gradually at about salvo 14.

Salvo 14 times at about 06:00:10 and since the turnaway depends on detecting it via range estimates and spotting, not by direct observation or inclinometer, we may sure there was a delay of minutes in detecting it. Just as M-R and Schmalenbach depict it, Bismarck turned away before Hood's destruction, as seen and recorded in stills and movie shot by the PK team. The rapid burst of firing shown in the film sealed Hood's destruction, and the few salvoes observed by Leach and Brooke later show that Bismarck's firing rate dropped off considerably after 06:03.


Toussaint appears to have used Antonio's old 2005 track for PoW showing the hard turn towards the enemy, witnessed by Brooke, Busch etc as she steered around Hood's wreck and before the Compass platform hit whose angles make PoW invulnerable during this turn, and which can only have happened after she turned back to port. When Antonio decided that a retelling of the Denmark Straits action needed spicing-up to make it contentious and interesting he invented the whole "Leach Panics" scenario and suppressed the turn towards on newer versions of his map, and ignored the witnesses because they were inconvenient. This imaginary scenario of course required the ship whose average rate of fire was poorer than PoW's with her failing guns (as "proved" by Master Mathematician Alberto) , to switch aim and fire the deadly salvo into PoW's bridge in about 50 seconds, including time of flight.


Not just unlikely, downright impossible. It always has been.


All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

somebody intentionally decided to disregard Capt Leach key words ...

... almost immediately ...

... and we have seen long time ago, ... thanking Thorsten Wahl, ... inside the film, ... what " almost immediately " meant, ... in relation to the PoW salvoes 15 and 16, ... and their timings, ...

Those are the facts, ... the rest are pure fantasies and intentional speculations, ... for known reasons, ...

Bye Antonio

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Antonio Bonomi:

Hi Antonio,
please don't be so tough with this poor hooligan/denier, let him present his gibbering theory (he has apparently abandoned by now the 1990 Baron's map with the crazy turn to 270° at 5:55 and back to 220° at 6:00... ...and he tries now to put the turn at least before Hood explosion at 6:00. He will realize he cannot move it too much because PoW salvo 13 hit Bismarck, and it was fired assuming she was still on course 220° at 5:59:45, landing after 6:00, therefore Bismarck was still exactly on course 220° at that time . Salvo 14 was landing after 6:00:30 and still it was a "over", therefore Bismarck had not yet altered significantly her course to starboard.....) .

When he will have put in context all photos and film frames with PoW salvo plot and PG battlemap, he will make us laugh (as he recently did already).


Bye, Alberto


P.S. I don't think you have "suppressed" the turn toward the enemy at 6:00:xx to avoid Hood's remains in any version of your map (as this guy "pretends" in his delirious post above)... just the graphic tool did not allow to draw it precisely enough to depict a very slight course alteration (surely less than 20°, as Y turret was not wooded at any time....just starting an evident roll).
At least I can say with a certain degree of certitude that the turn was still there in our 2017 published map. Have I missed something?
This denier is totally lost, overwhelmed by his "mathematical ignorance" and doesn't know what he speaks about anymore.

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

Dunmunro wrote: "This is what Leach states about KM output after ~0603......"about two enemy salvos were seen short during this period""

...however PG film and photos show at least 9 (most probably 11 or 12) salvos fired after 6:03:30 (Bismarck turn away time). There are 6 semi-salvos in the film (1 full salvo and 4 semi-salvos) and 3 to 6 (semi-)salvos in the photos we have (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 135#p68219). There can even be more, not depicted in any photo, of course. Not less....

The fact that Leach did not see all of them through his own smoke screen means NOTHING at all, as photographic evidence is incontrovertible, at least until this provoking guy will be unable to present his reconstruction of the battle "putting in context" these evidences before 6:03 , and I bet he will never be able to do such a work.


Bye, Alberto

That film has been edited heavily and is worthless as a historical record of the action. The editors wanted to show some shots of Bismarck firing but matching the film to actual timing is hopeless.

You're now trying to tell us that Bismarck was just firing blindly through smoke so thick that even the RN couldn't see where the KM salvos were landing...

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

be relaxed my friend, ... everything is OK and according to what has been widely and long discussed here in this forum on several threads already.

The graphic software limitations are the responsible of those maps " rounded " turns, ... due to the low scale and printing needs.
I have produced many years ago a detailed map of the PoW turn away with timing, salvoes and the received hits.

I agree with you, ... I am just waiting for those new publication to occur and after I will comment accordingly.

Many of them are surely not in condition to put together anything, ... as it shows quite clearly.

Here above we have another example about how competent and capable they are, ... talking about the PG film.

If they are unable to do it, ... it must be not possible to use it, ...

They do not even realize that somebody has already done it ...

Probably they hope to find a digital high quality version of the full film in 3D from both sides with associated timing and an electronic made map on high scale with a GPS ( Global Positioning System ) warship positioning second by second, ...

While they dream about it and keep on trying to find a solution for they thousand doubts about maps, film and photos, ... let us work on something serious and useful.

Bye Antonio

[northcape]

Hello everybody,

Dunmunro wrote: "This is what Leach states about KM output after ~0603......"about two enemy salvos were seen short during this period""

...however PG film and photos show at least 9 (most probably 11 or 12) salvos fired after 6:03:30 (Bismarck turn away time). There are 6 semi-salvos in the film (1 full salvo and 4 semi-salvos) and 3 to 6 (semi-)salvos in the photos we have (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 135#p68219). There can even be more, not depicted in any photo, of course. Not less....

The fact that Leach did not see all of them through his own smoke screen means NOTHING at all, as photographic evidence is incontrovertible, at least until this provoking guy will be unable to present his reconstruction of the battle "putting in context" these evidences before 6:03 , and I bet he will never be able to do such a work.


Bye, Alberto

The only thing which is incontrovertible here is the stupidity of the Milano science: It creates a hypothesis, e.g. a battle reconsctruction. Part of the hypothesis (part of the battle reconstruction) is the assignment of time marks to the film. In the next step, the hypothesis is used to prove itself (e.g. by telling "the film shows that at this time that event has happened, so it is incontrovertible"). Dummy, you have just created the time marks on the film by yourself! And then you wonder if somebody questions your engineering skills. You mentioned that you have spent 5 years studying mathematics, but obviously you did not learn a lot during these 5 years.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

lets hope that those guys are at least able to read ...

DS_battle_map_1978_ header_translation_01.jpg (84.48 KiB) Viewed 1003 times

1978_Schmalenbach_Baron_Rohwer_map.jpg (57.2 KiB) Viewed 1003 times

... even if I suppose that asking them to use their limited brain ( the substitution of the British ship tracks as suggested by VizeAdm Schmundt too ) is probably asking for too much, ...

Here the final result :

1980_rechberg_rohwer.jpg (26.73 KiB) Viewed 1003 times

... because all those explanations has been provided several times years ago already, ... but they simply are unable ( or unwilling ) to understand them, ... confirming my above statement of course.


They are even unable to realize that since many years all websites and published books are using basically the above map, ... or my 2005 one that is basically an improvement and confirmation of the above one, ... as it must be.

The French guy lately clearly realize the above easy concept, ... but apparently our " hooligan/deniers " still have a lot of problems ...

Bye Antonio

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

a denier wrote: " you have just created the time marks on the film by yourself!"

FALSE !
The film is timed by studying it (but you must know a bit what you are speaking about, of course....).
The film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY) shows Bismarck already on course around 270°. After few seconds PG turns to starboard (it's proven by the stanchion of the PG railings moving backward as the cameraman was trying to keep Bismarck at the center of the camera (from time 5:42 till 5:55 in the film above).
Now, when was PG turning for the first time ?

Luckily we have the PG original battlemap with her track that shows how PG turned at around 6:03:40, perfectly timing the film start at that time. Any other timing MUST BE PROVEN (and it will be very difficult....)
If someone wants to invent his own battlemap, he is welcome, of course, but please try to respect what we see in the film and the available evidences, not being only driven by a dumb denial frenzy to justify the poor behavior of some timid officers.

the same insulting denier wrote: "the stupidity of the Milano science:"

I would be more careful mentioning Milano and the Milanese: the last time he did so (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... ese#p79977), he got rubbished in public by his own co-deniers, but shamelessly he is still here insulting and mocking....



BTW, I have asked a direct question to this poor guy (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 840#p80627), with no answer, because he is too coward to provide it, letting someone more knowledgeable to try to answer for him....



Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

The 1978 map shows Norfolk at 33km at 0537...

[Alberto Virtuani]

but here we speak about BS firing and track...... the thread for NF and SF is here (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=210).
Can we please avoid to mix everything only to try to divert discussion and avoid to admit what has been demonstrated ?

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

It is transparently dishonest to show maps by men who were there and say:

Here the final result :

for a 1980 version of a map, when the latest and one might expect most refined version you have in your possession was published in 1990 in the revised version of the Baron's book, endorsed by him and Schmalenbach. It clearly shows Bismarck turning away as early as 05:55, a move detected by McMullen only by his applied rate of closure being incorrect. As M-R and Schmalenbach show PG also turns to conform, but chaos is created when the flagship turns back to port and PG passes close across her bows. At right angles.

Show that if you dare. (Or I could put it up, but I give you a chance to regain a little respect, by honestly showing the latest version of the M-R/Schmalenbach map.)

Once again you isolate the "useless and worthless" description of Brinkmann's submitted Gefechtskizze to the British tracks only, but exactly how would Schmundt know the representation was incorrect? Is it something to do with the Jasper-Raeder document that your blabby co-author boasted about withholding from the Forum?

It is noteworthy that despite the Kriegsmarine's determination to learn from the errors of the operation, even to the extent of attempting to recreate the Bismarck's KTB, there is apparently no surviving contemporary official track shown for Bismarck. Hence the debate we find ourselves embroiled in.

Lagemann's stills captions on Hood's shells landing fit perfectly on the period when the film depicts Bismarck turning away. Well before 06:00.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

Wadinga wrote: "....It clearly shows Bismarck turning away as early as 05:55...."

thus (despite Mr.Wadinga extremely interesting question whether it has to be considered "final" an original map from 1980 or one from 1990, copied from a 1971 one, http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 195#p68342) the 1971/1990 map is proven totally wrong, because McMullen salvo plot shows us that the closure rate was extremely high, allowing him to hit Bismarck ONLY if she was on course around 220° (or even less than 220°...) from 5:55 till 6:00:30 at least (http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... encIVa.gif). Had Bismarck been on course 270° already from 5:55 the distance would not have changed at all after 5:55.


Again my direct question for everybody: which is the battlemap that, up to now, puts in context all evidences in the best possible way ?

Answer is easy, it's enough to see which one an (overall) competent French author has chosen in 2018 to publish his book (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 795#p80577).....


Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hello Alberto,

copied from a 1971 one

They are completely different, as they have evolved over time. In your imagination, when Ellis contradicts himself in a rambling memoire, it is because he is revealing a hidden truth and what you consider deliberate lies in his official report. When The Baron revises his map in consultation with Schmalenbach why isn't this improved and more accurate too?

Can you remind Antonio that 1990 happened after 1978 and that his reading is the problem.

McMullen's shooting decisions certainly require considerably more analysis. Is there anything hidden away in the analysis of the gunnery failures, which you have, which you have "forgotten" to mention? I notice you have "clammed-up" quickly on the Jasper-Raeder communication, was that a blurted Oops! when you mentioned it?

Answer is easy, it's enough to see which one an (overall) competent French author has chosen in 2018 to publish his book

What does that say about your "friend" Admiral Santarini who ignored your map from "Stretti di Danimarca" in favour of the Elfrath map showing Bismarck turning away at 05:55? Does it make him an incompetent author?


All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

come on, ... do not tell and reveal too much to this incompetent guy, ... leave him alone on his fantasies and dreams about a map and some photo incorrect captions, ... do not tell him that not even a 1971 one reprinted, ... it was back on 1943 the original version of that map, ...

Do not tell the guy that the 150 mm secondary of the Bismarck opened fire only against the PoW and obviously at the shortest distance between the two warships of course, ...

Poor guy thinking that Bismarck turned to starboard at 05:55, ... I like him to stay with Winklareth and Vic Dale, ... so the team is enlarged, ... and we can have some fun about it.

Bye Antonio