Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[Dreadnought]

Tommy, I am now under no doubt that the "tube" is nothing more then an annuciated safety/salvo warning for firing the turret in the local mode. The Germans built complex and complicated machinery especially in their navy. The panel to which you refer is correct. It is a status board and swithcing board much like the USN designs. It shows coms to plot in auto mode, semi auto and shows the status of the weapons (as does the USN version) I find it more then diffacult to believe that the germans would leave a critical part of the fc loop in such flimsy and unsupported construction. And on top of that in the charge of just one man as in your picture. Pneumatics do not like the cold nor water and Bismarks turret inspections found them not only cold and wet but in dire need of a gas ejector system in other words extremely smokey once the guns were fired.The KM like the RN like the USN stressed saftey aboard their ships especially in their turrets and magazines. Bismark was a state of the art ship for its day and no doubt had a quality fc system aboard. I find it more then diffacult to believe they would have designed a safety interlock that had such a pretension to failure due to conditions in the turret itself. They were much smarter then that,

You may think that the fc systems of that day were not alike, but in many ways they were very simular. IMO, and I have been familiar with procedure and equipment on fc systems for several years, those same systems built in that very same decade. IMO, and you may think what you want, Im under the firm believe that "breathing tube" is nothing more then an audio annunciator system to warn the gun captain and gunners mates to clear the loading platform area before the gun fires and recoils. Much like sound powered phones abaord ships of that very same decade.

And by the way, that panel which you see is not the only safety on the fc system. You also had atleast two on the gun itself to lock it in place while at sea, two in each turret to stop horizontal motion while the ship was at sea and at minimum two on the rotating shell platforms. These are all directed to removal by the turret officer, not the gunnery officer.

[tommy303]

Tommy, I am now under no doubt that the "tube" is nothing more then an annuciated safety/salvo warning for firing the turret in the local mode. The Germans built complex and complicated machinery especially in their navy.

You are free to believe what you like, but this is from Fregattenkapitän Paul Schmalenbach, the second gunnery officer of the Prinz Eugen at Denmark Strait and later first gunnery officer in the later stages of the war.

Bei Abfeuerung vom leitenden Stand drückte der Höhenrichtmann einem Kontakt am Richthandrad oder blies kurz in seinen Mundkontakt.

[Herr Nilsson]

tommy303 is right ...as usual
There is the pictogramm of the "Mundkontakt" in Bismarck's "Schema der Abfeuerungs- und Abfeuerungsmeldeanlage" for the 38 cm SK. C/34 in 38 cm Drh. L. C/34

[Dreadnought]

Well I stand corrected. Im in disbelief the Germans would design some so frail for such an important purpose.

[Dreadnought]

as usual ? I would not necessarily say that mine Herr.

[Antonio Bonomi]

This is the proper place for this argument :

Hello everybody,

only Prinz Eugen fired only the aft Group C+D at the end of the engagement, due to her course and the PoW relative position, since she could not bear the fwd Group A+B, ... reference KptLtnt Paulus Jasper gunnery report.

Bismarck could always fire both A+B and C+D turrets, so both fwd and aft groups all the way thru the battle as far as we can see from film and photos.

We do know Bismarck fired 93 shells on that engagement and YES, ... 104 guns ordered to fire was my estimate/evaluation, ... it could have been 108 or 112, ... or even more, ... we will never know for sure unfortunately.

Thanking the Baron we do know that Hood was targeted with 40 shells ( guns ordered to fire ) before the explosion, ... other shells may have fallen on her sinking wreck ... after Bismarck shifted fire to Prince of Wales.

We can count semi-salvoes of 4 guns ( 26 x 4 = 104 ) of either the fwd or aft group, ... or the full salvo ( broadside ) of 8 guns ( 13 x 8 = 104 ).

Capt Leach was describing a group of 4 shells landing on Hood when she exploded, ... so I assume 4 shells at each time being fired to the enemy, ... but he also stated it was the Bismarck 5th salvo, ... so I assume he was calculating 8 guns for each full salvo ( broadside ), ... in order to reach the total of 40 shells mentioned by the Baron.

I was asking help above on evaluating how Bismarck fired, and I think here following we can see the first 20 guns ordered to fire toward the Hood, so 5 semi-salvoes of 4 guns ... after we had surely other 5 semi-salvo on rapid fire, ... up to 40 as said.

BS_Salvoes_05.jpg

We can assume other 1 or 2 semi-salvoes ( 4 or 8 guns ) of Bismarck still being directed to Hood before Bismarck shifted fire to PoW.

At this point we are at 44 or 48 guns being ordered to fire on around 6 minutes of the battle out of 14 total minutes.

Most likely for other 2 minutes Bismarck making only a small correction fired other 4 semi-salvoes ( 16 guns ordered to fire ) to PoW, scoring 3 hits on her.

We are at this point at around 06.03 and 60 or 64 guns have been ordered to fire on the first 9 minutes battle time out of 14.

The Prinz Eugen torpedo ALARM reached Capt Lindemann, ... and Bismarck turned 50 degrees to starboard, ... around 30 seconds time, ... loosing the target PoW ...

Did Bismarck restart firing with same initial target acquisition methodology : Vollsalve + 4 hectometers Gabelgruppe ?
Is this what we are looking at on the PG film sequence ?

If this was the case as I think, ... since also Jasper did this from Prinz Eugen when he changed target reference his report, ... here the 5 semi-salvoes used to try to get the range again on PoW leaving the battlefield, so other 20 guns ordered to fire.

BS_Salvoes_05.jpg

At this point after other 2 minutes Bismarck turned again 50 degrees to port ( other 30 seconds ) loosing again the target having ordered to fire 80 or 84 guns and we are at 06.06 battle time.

On the last 2/3 minutes battle time before she ceased fire at 06.09 Bismarck ordered to fire other 20/24 guns on 5 or 6 semi-salvoes we can see on several existing photos of her taken from Prinz Eugen.

So a total of 104 guns ordered to fire on 14 minutes battle time, ... 93 shells really fired.

As usual, ... opinions are welcome ...

Bye Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Moved here into the proper place :

Hello everybody,

referencing my scheme above, made on 2008 thanking some German competent friends, ... here following Kpt Ltnt Paulus Jasper description of how he changed target from Hood to Prince of Wales repeating his initial procedure in order to get the new target ( PoW ) before starting the rapid fire once again.

In German :

Das 2. Schießen begann ich ebenfalls mit einer Vollsalve und anschließender 4 - Hektogruppe, mit der ich 0559 Uhr eingeschossen war und in das Wirkungsshießens eintragt. Die Entfernung war zu dieser Zeit etwa 160 - 170 hm. Im Laufe des Wirkungsschießens habe ich zweimal Treffer beobachtet, beide wieder Bb.-gleichzeitig von der Mittelartillerie des "Bismarck" beschossen, die es gut eindeckte.

In English :

As was the case earlier, I commenced second firing with a Full Salvo ( Vollsalve ) followed by a ranging group (straddle ladder ; 4 - Hektogruppe = 4 hectometers Gabelgruppe ) which zeroed me in as of 0459. Firing for effect ( Rapid Fire = Wirkungsschießens ) was then initiated. The distance at that time was 160-170 hectometers. During the completion of measuring fire effectiveness, I observed two well-placed strikes which again were fired simultaneously from the portside by the secondary artillery of the "Bismarck".

Does anybody sees any reason why the Bismarck / Schneider should not or cannot have done exactly the same procedure ?

Above on my scheme you simply have this procedure translated into a graphic format ...

Any help is welcome ...

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

... As far as I understand the geometry at 6:00, Bismarck was still behind Prinz Eugen, at maybe 1500-2000 meters. Hood exploded at salvo 5, and salvo 6 was probably still fired against her. Salvo 7 was then required to take Prince of wales as target. If target range was confirmed - and it should have been - rapid fire could be initiated from salvo 8 onwards. [meaning salvo 8 and 9]

The only trouble - which begins to be more apparent as we look at salvos per minute more critically - is that Bismarck's "rapid" fire seems more to be "slow" fire...

If Hood blew up at 6:00:30... salvo 7 could have been fired at 6:01:00 or so... landed around Prince of Wales at 6:01:20... rapid fire ordered... salvo 8 fired at 6:01:25 (turret group A+B) and 6:01:26 (turret group C+D)... salvo 9 should have been fired at 6:01:50 (turret group A+B) and 6:01:51 (turret group B+C)... salvo 10 at 6:02:15 and 6:02:16... salvo 11 at 6:02:40 and 6:02:41... all before the hard turn to starboard following torpedo alarm...

BUT in reality, Bismarck only fired 2 full salvos - nr 8 and nr 9, before the hard turn... So again, a slow rate of fire... Despite clear enemy, clear range... Something doesn't add up...

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

since we are going to deeply discuss about this argument allow me to make a suggestion for everybody, ... we need to be clear about salvo, semi-salvoes and broadsides.

In order to keep commonality with PoW Gunnery report that is talking about salvo I suggest to keep same terms also about Bismarck.

Consequently Bismarck sunk Hood not with the 5th salvo ( broadside of 8 guns -> 5x8=40 ) but with the 10th salvo of 4 guns ( 10x4 = 40).
If we assume 104 shells ordered to fire ( it can be any number starting from 96 until, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120 or even more ), ... since Bismarck really fired only 93 shells, ... they are 13 broadside of 8 guns ( 13x8 = 104 ) or 26 salvos of 4 guns ( 26 x 4 = 104 ).

I agree with you, ... no matter how we count them, ... they were " slow " in any case at certain point, ... and we can see that very clearly on the PG Rheinubung film sequence.
She can fire very fast as she did, ... but sometimes she was slowing down a lot between salvos from the same group.

Hood blew up at 06.00 and 10/20 seconds, ... that 10th salvo was fired by Bismarck 15/20 seconds earlier at 05:59:55 - 06:00:00 more or less ... in less than 5 minutes since she opened fire ( Adm Lutjens message ) and according to the PK (Kriegsmahler) J.C. Schmitz-Westerholt paint the salvo was fired by the C+D group.

In addittion we have 5 salvo well visible into the 86 seconds of the PG Film ( removing the 8 seconds British ships sequence intentionally inserted in there cutting the BS sequence ), ... and those should be the salvos 17th until salvo 21st included ... from 06:03:29 until 06:04:52.

What we need to do is to put together the photos, film and time data ( PoW gunnery ) that we have ... and determine what comes out from the evidence with good approximation.

We cannot guess much here now ... better to see what the data are telling us, ... now that we can align them nicely with PG and PoW available ones.

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

@Antonio
One very small quibble:
if you want to adress Bismarck's salvos by semi-salvos, then we should say "Hood was sunk by the 9th OR 10th salvo", as we do not know from what semi-salvo did the killing shell, or shells, belong to.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Alecsandros wrote: "Hood exploded at salvo 5, and salvo 6 was probably still fired against her. "

Hi Alec,
while I agree with you (and I'm still wondering why.... ) that BS rapid fire was not so rapid, I honestly don't believe that a full 2 salvos (to use Antonio's naming convention) were fired against Hood after her explosion, possibly just a salvo of 4 shells assuming BS was firing separately two turrets groups (e.g. A+B and C+D).
The reason is the PG film few frames where we see the Hood remains burning and a BS salvo falling already around PoW (we see the water columns growing from the sea and probably the compass platform hit is within this very salvo).

PoW_compass_hit_BS (2).jpg (27.51 KiB) Viewed 2322 times

Just after these frames, in the film , we clearly see PoW salvo 16 fired (timed at 6:00:50 by the PoW Gunnery Report).

PoW_fwd_aft_firing.jpg (28.67 KiB) Viewed 2322 times

Even keeping into account the PG perspective (PG still ahead of BS, so the interval between PoW and Hood looks greater than from BS), PoW has not yet reached (or possibly is just reaching) the Hood remains (as seen from Bismarck), therefore less than 1 minute has passed since Hood has blown up (PoW was sailing just 800 meters behind Hood and in one minute she could cover that distance). BS, at 6:00:50 (minus flight time....), has already (incredibly quickly, I agree, but undoubtedly) switched her fire against PoW, and I do think that this is a great gunnery achievement.

Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

@Alberto

IF Bismarck was firing in rapid fire mode, THEN salvo 6 (or semi salvo 11 and 12) COULD be fired BEFORE Hood blew up.

This is because time of flight of 380mm shell at 17000 m was 26 seconds - longer than the firing cycle of Bismarck (at least that showed during gun trials... aroudn 20seconds)

So it is possible that semisalvo 11 and 12 were in the air before Hood exploded.

The other possibility is that Bismarck was firing (deliberate ?) slow salvos, despite rapid fire order being given...

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Alec,
I agree that from her theoretical RoF, 2 salvos could be fired by BS, but this is again not in line with the average RoF during the battle also because it would give 48 shells fired against Hood, leaving very few shells to be fired to PoW later (as demonstrated by photos and film).

That's why I believe only the salvo already in the air (or almost) was fired at Hood after the explosion. Then a slight adjustment and the salvo we see in the frames, landing less than 1 minute after the explosion (at 6:00:50), therefore fired at 6:00:30 max. against the new target.

Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Alecsandros,

YES, I would like to address the salvo counter as semi-salvos of 4 guns, so it is easier and aligned with PoW counter methodology.

I assume it was the 10th and not the 9th, only because the Baron stated that Hood took only 40 shells to be sunk ( so 40/4= 10 ) and Capt Leach that was probably counting the full salvo ( of 8 guns ) wrote about the 5th salvo ... even if he was referring to 4 shells landing on Hood when she exploded ) 2 short and one over or vice versa and one that hit the Hood, so 4 in total every time they felt on Hood ).

@ Alberto,

your post is just perfectly in line with the events, the images and the timing.
Photo Nh 69724 shows PoW salvo's 13th and 14th, in the air, ... this film sequence shows PoW salvo 16th departing, .. just when a Bismarck salvo is landing on PoW, ...and it is probably the first one from BS that hit the Compass platform ... we need to thank Thorsten for this finding time ago ...

The timing of those 3 salvo's is well available into the PoW gunnery report map, ... so the events timing is very precise.

@ all,

carefully observe the PG film, ... those 86 seconds ... and tell me if you always see the fwd or aft group firing as a group A+B ( fwd ) and C+D ( aft ) ... or sometimes it can be different ... like A+D ... and B+C ...

Bye Antonio

[alecsandros]

... Antonio, the film has different turret groups firing, not necessarily A+B / C+D / A+B ... It also has secondary artillery firing.

Analysis of firing as per film is here:

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/film.htm

Copy-paste only for 380mm salvos:


"5:40 Bismarck has just fired a heavy salvo. Bismarck is clearly aft and to starboard of Prinz Eugen. In this first part of the battle film, Bismarck is either kept centred in the camera's field of view, or is on the left side of the screen. All her salvoes are on the near side and aimed at something abaft the mid-section.

5:41 Bismarck's turrets Anton and Bruno fire.

6:04 Bismarck's Anton and Bruno fire, lots of smoke afterwards.

6:06 Bismarck's Caesar and Dora fire, lots of smoke.

6:36 Bismarck's Caesar and Dora fire a salvo with lots of smoke.

6:51 Cuts back to Bismarck. She has just fired another main armament salvo (heavy smoke can be seen). There is a great lull. Again, we don't know how long it took him to get his camera back over on the other side to look at Bismarck. Bismarck is at more of an angle than before (more bow on than before). She still appears to be to somewhat starboard and aft of Prinz Eugen.

7:05 Scene cuts to Prinz Eugen's bow wave. and then back to Bismarck. She has once again fired a heavy salvo as there is a lot of smoke present."