Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

now it is clear what Erminio Bagnasco did, he just translated the Baron Mullenheim Rechberg second edition book, written in English Language.

Here the caption in English from that book confirming both Bagnasco and my way to see the NH69731 photo, just as it is correctly captioned in English on the Baron MR second edition book :

MR_second_book_edition_NH69731_caption_English.jpg (66.01 KiB) Viewed 1227 times

Now it is clear from where Esmond Knight and the NHHC archives took their captions too …

As I was telling everybody since the beginning, ... no way out here : THE GAME IS OVER !

Closed story for this photo as well as for the other one, … and as Alberto underlined above, ... now it should be clear to everybody when the PG film started and the Prinz Eugen turned to starboard, ... at 06:03 and 30 seconds, ... with due tolerances, .. just as the PG map shows.

I am sure that many here in knew this photo caption, ... before I have searched and found it ...


Bye Antonio

[northcape]

The "due tolerances" in absolute time (e.g. UTC): some minutes
The "due tolerances" in relative time (e.g. starting with the battle): one minute at minimum.

Again, the sentence has to read correctly

"Here the caption in English from that book that is identical with both Bagnasco and my way to see the NH69731 photo, just as it is captioned in English on the Baron MR second edition book :"

There is nothing confirmed or nothing correct. It all are interpretations of a photo where nobody knows what is seen. Or do you really think that the photographer could identify splashes etc. while making photos? These photos are not a minute documentation, but propaganda fotos and snapshots taken literately in the heat of the fight. Further, we don't know how provided the caption originally (and again, the caption is an interpretation, given the circumstances).

I know you think very highly of yourself, but you so caught in your own grandezza that you have no sense for the difference between reality and interpretation of reality. This is just one of teh many occasions where you demonstrate your complete ignorance of the scientific method (which would allow to derive a robust interpretation of reality).

Yes, please let the game be over, finally. Go ahead and publish your book.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

you can realize the man in victory, ... as well as you can realize him on his defeat.

Here above we have a post by a looser denier, ... one of the many today here in, ... and everybody can read and realize how bad it is to realize that you have lost all the way thru, ... and with him all the other ones able only to deny and very seldom lately able to provide a value add on this historical battle re-construction.

The reasons of that attitude are well known, ... because the above photo not only confirms my work and the correct way to read the timing of the events and the PG Film, ... what could or could not have happened before and after it, ... before or after 06:03 and 30 seconds, ... just in the middle of the battle.

Now, ... in line with this thread subject, ... it will be easy to understand how many salvoes Bismarck fired before and after the salvo we can see on this photo too, ... inside the PoW smoke while the English battleship is leaving the battlefield at 06:03 and 30 seconds.

But not only, ... we can realize a lot better what Capt Leach wrote, ... and with no doubts since the photo is confirming his words now, ... he decided to retreat and turned away around the Hood wreckage, ... made a smoke screen ( well visible on this photo too ) and after having done it the PoW fired in local control 3 salvoes ( 2+1+1 shells ) with Y turret while PoW was disengaging.

Well, ... in this photo we see the first of those 3 salvoes fired by the Y turret while in local Control ( the other 2 are on the PG film ) and we have the timing of this photo, ... 06:03 and 30 seconds.

Not only, ... because now, ... even the most stupid idiot writing into this forum can understand that writing that it happened at 06:13 instead of at 06:03 Adm Tovey wrote an intentional lie when he declared that incorrect time, ... made by adding 10 more minutes ( at least ) to the real event we can see already in process at 06:03 and 30 seconds, ... so surely started before the minute 06:03 obviously, ... and in fact Ltnt ( RN ) Pitcairn-Jones on the Battle Summary Nr 5 ( Royal Navy Admiralty Historical Section ) wrote that was going to be taken back at least to 06:03 while officially correcting Adm Tovey false statement of 06:13 for the PoW retreat event time.

Sir Ludovic Kennedy writing 06:13 for the PoW retreat into his book PURSUIT, ... just only provided a " sugar coating " version of an intentional lie and that book " novel " has been considered being reliable for 75 years.

We do know why Adm Tovey did it, ... and that is a subject of another thread here in ( The Court Martial call attempt ) that everybody well know.

As I wrote, ... the game now is over all the way thru, ... not only for those photos and timing, ... but for the whole re-construction and the associated events ... obviously.

I know that is is hard to be a looser, ... but it happens in life when you choose the wrong side of a discussion.

Regarding my publications, ... this all story has been already published, ... the battle on December 2005, ... and it is widely used all over being the most credible and precise re-construction of that event, ... and even the " regrettable aftermath " of the cover up of the Court Martial attempt has been already published recently, ... on Storia Militare magazine after a careful review by my editors ...

Soon there will be a more complete publication entirely dedicated to the Denmark Strait/Rheinubung ... in English and maybe also in German language ( like my Tirpitz books ) and complete like never done before by anybody.

ribot-arcdetriomphe-1956-iloveimg-compressed.jpeg (53.81 KiB) Viewed 1188 times

" Let me see where is that donkey now, ... the one I have lost long time ago back there, ... " ....

Bye Antonio

[Herr Nilsson]

So the mistranslation is from Sweetman and not Bagnasco. So what? A mistranslation is a mistranslation is a mistranslation.

I think everyone agrees that Busch had one of the best seats during the battle. Here is his detailed description of the picture:

FOBusch.jpg (59.47 KiB) Viewed 1158 times

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

I think that the Baron Von Mullenheim Rechberg and Paul Schmalenbach had very good positions too watching the events , … and they were both artillery Officers, … like Erminio Bagnasco.

Consequently, ... looking at that photo and what it shows, ... it was easier for them to write a proper caption.

That is where your problem is, ... you like just to blindy follow a caption, … somebody else follows and reads all the captions, ... but it is also more capalble to understand if the caption is correct or at least it is credible, ... or it is completely wrong and unreliable.

The " schlachtkreuzer " caption you commented lately is a good example for you to understand what I mean.

Anyway, here the comments of the Baron Von Mullenheim Rechberg on teh translator job of his version of this story, including that new caption he wrote :

Baron_thanks_translators.jpg (51.6 KiB) Viewed 1136 times

What is important is that now we do know what the photo shows, ... and it is the salvo 19th, ... the first in Local Control of 2 shells from PoW fired at 06:03 and 30 seconds.

If you disagree, … just tell us all why, ... and provide here in the demonstration of what you like to state and support.

Exactly like I am doing ...

NOTE : This is an English forum, not a German or Italian one, … so please when you attach a German text, … can you provide also the translation of it. So we can read it, ... not knowing perfectly the German Language. Thanks

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

This is the google translation of Busch:

Greenland battle. On the far left: Heavy smoldering debris from Hood which was thrown far to the left in the explosion (Boats, Flea, Midplane: Cloud of smoke at Hood's point of sinking: Olbrand, Right: Prince of Wales) of the two German ships, impacts of the 38 cm of the Bismarck ", to the right of it bright muzzle smoke of the guns of the Englishman, who smokes also by hits black and runs to Okten.

[wadinga]

Hello All,

We have been treated to a large picture of the wrong equestrian sport. We are not involved in horse racing but fox-hunting and wily old Fox Antonio has laid a false scent to take the hounds off the true trail.


We are not concerned solely with what is written in "Prinz Eugen im Ersten Gefecht.

Whatever Busch (or an editor) may have written about the splashes on the right of a different photograph in his book (NH 69731)does not affect the original caption by Lagemann recorded on a different print showing the last salvoes of Hood landing just over PG and held by the Bundesarchiv.

On the Bundesarchiv photo search page if you enter 146-1968-015-012

You find the single splash shot mistitled in Erste Gefechte as Schlachtkreuzers

In the Bundesarchive it says the original caption is:

Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann

Not Battle Cruiser(s), quite definitively "Hood"! It shows Bismarck's turrets turned aft, and it shows shells landing near Prinz Eugen, because Hood was always firing at Prinz Eugen.

If we were interested in captions from the book we would look at the caption for the photo opposite p 177 in my 1944 edition which shows Bismarck with the three smoke puffs from her 5.9s and the big splash in the right of the photo and as seen in the movie ie close to the cameraman and the caption:

Wahrend Bismarck, salve auf salve feuert, schlagen die Aufschlage von Hood in der nahe der Prinz Eugen ein

Marc kindly translated this as:

"While Bismarck is firing salvo after salvo Hood's impacts are splashing near Prinz Eugen." (Actually ...impacts are impacting...)

Confirming that this is also a Hood salvo landing close to PG and nothing to do with any single gun shot fired by guesswork and the power of prayer from PoW after Hood was sunk.

. there is only the salvo 19th, … the first in local control, ... of 2 shells and it is very well visible on the photo NH 69731.

falling thousands of yards short. Somehow without the benefit of any director or sophisticated computing equipment and while his ship and target are turning hard, Claude Aylwin fires a single gun 5 secs after the 19th falls and is "close BS stern" and 5 secs after that fires a second single gun which is " close to BS bow". Yes, that's right it sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous.

It is indeed preposterous to insist these photographs of shots landing near Prinz Eugen are anything to do with PoW. Just because Antonio has chosen to misidentify and misrepresent this evidence for five, or ten or even fifteen years signifies nothing. As the men who were aboard PG at the time said, they are Hood's salvoes and these photos and the film are from this time in the engagement, not later as has been falsely claimed. NH 69731 comes from that much later period.


All the best

wadinga

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

there are persons blindly trusting the captions they like … and unable to read and understand documents they do not like, …

… and there are persons that do read all the captions, … use their brain and logic, … and are able to realize what is possible and probably right, … from what is impossible and surely wrong.

Photo NH 69731 shows PoW local control Y turret salvo 19th of 2 shells.

The PG Film was taken surely after it as demonstrated ( ) and shows the final two salvoes 20th and 21th of 1 shell seach from PoW.

The photos are perfectly linked and connected on my article and battle map of 2005.

Who likes to state something different, is kindly requested to provide a map and the correlation with the photos and all the other existing evidence of this battle, … just like I did on 2005.

At least we can continue to have fun … and watch back the donkey in clear difficulties, …


Bye Antonio

[Byron Angel]

Re photographic image NH 69731 Battle of the Denmark Strait, 24 May 1941 .....

The two shell splashes which appear on the right side of the image do not interrupt the horizon line. Therefore, from the observer/photographer's point of view, fall of shot arguably must have been either upon the horizon line or some distance beyond it.

> Assuming observer/photographer was situated on weather deck (~30ft above sea level), the fall of shot would have been at least 12,000 yards away.

> Assuming observer/photographer was situated in the superstructure(~60ft above sea level), the fall of shot would have been at least 18,000 yards away.

Readers are invited to draw their own conclusions.

B

[Bill Jurens]

As anyone who has studied these things to any depth will attest, captions to photographs are notoriously unreliable. I would place only the smallest credence on the original caption to the photograph in question -- which at best could only reflect what the photographer THOUGHT he saw -- and virtually none at all on various interpretations and translations provided afterwards. Except in extremely unusual cases, captions might best be thought of as guidelines to what the photograph depicts, rendering any serious interpretation of their precise content problematical at best.

Actually, the same might be said of nearly all of the photography which purports to show the Denmark Strait action; it was probably only poorly understood when exposed, and was thereafter subject, via a variety of sources, to subsequent editing and revision. This is particularly the case during wartime, when truth -- especially as exposed to the public -- can often be viewed as somewhat pliable, with photos and films often being edited and arranged in various ways to hide various issues which might otherwise be of utility to potential enemies. For example, it would not be unreasonable, in film, to somewhat speed up the frame rate so that Bismarck appeared to be firing more rapidly than she actually was, or -- in still photography -- to carefully obscure certain features, such as hull numbers and radio/radar apparatus.

Anyone watching television 'documentaries' today can easily see evidence of similar distortions, though not necessarily intended to deliberately deceive, when various clips of films purporting to illustrate naval combat actions are clearly made up of entirely unrelated unrelated ships or events. In that regard, documentary movies and photos from World War II are often not much more reliable than post-war Hollywood renditions of the same.

Bill Jurens

[northcape]

Re photographic image NH 69731 Battle of the Denmark Strait, 24 May 1941 .....

The two shell splashes which appear on the right side of the image do not interrupt the horizon line. Therefore, from the observer/photographer's point of view, fall of shot arguably must have been either upon the horizon line or some distance beyond it.

> Assuming observer/photographer was situated on weather deck (~30ft above sea level), the fall of shot would have been at least 12,000 yards away.

> Assuming observer/photographer was situated in the superstructure(~60ft above sea level), the fall of shot would have been at least 18,000 yards away.

Readers are invited to draw their own conclusions.

B

I am curious to see how the Milanese science will cope with this. Maybe they will invoke hollow earth theory or the like. Can't wait for their next nonsense rant.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Bill JUrens,

a great post, … I fully agree with … and a warning for the blind photo caption beleiver, …

Schmalenbach BS Warship profile and the Bundesarchiv captions of the 2 PoW shells falling close to the Bismarck we can see on the film to confirm your statements.

@ all,

we did the Bismarck and PoW shell details evaluation on this NH 69731 photo long time ago here in too.

But evidently who wrote above did not have the time and patience to read it.

Here we go again :

Nh69731_3_Bismarck_shells.JPG (114 KiB) Viewed 1047 times

A and B are the PoW shells.

1,2 and 3 are the Bismarck shells very close to the PoW into her smoke background.

Shells_Nh_69731.jpg (54.37 KiB) Viewed 1047 times

It does not take much to realize the difference both in dimension and in perspective.

The photographer was on the Prinz Eugen main deck as the reailing stanchion at midship do demonstrate, very low above the water anyway.

End of the demonstration, ... the call stand, ... and this is still the PoW first local control salvo of 2 shells ( as we can see ) landing at 06:03 and 30 seconds more or less., ... the PG film will start a bit later, ... when the Prinz Eugen will start her first turn to starboard.


Bye Antonio

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

here Paul cadogan print of the photo NH 69731 to explain the photo in details :

9 Battle of the Denmark Strait 0604.JPG (103.42 KiB) Viewed 1044 times

@ Herr Nillson,

I like to have your translation and interpretation of the F. O. Busch caption you proposed above, … from which book you took it ? Published when ?

Thanks.


Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello All,

It is not surprising that Antonio is so whole hearted in his endorsement of Bill's comments. In this case (only) they suit him. However it would also surely be really remiss to dismiss original captions out of hand. At least sometimes the photographer says what he saw.

This is the original caption from the Bundesarchiv for NH 69731

Die Hood ist gesunken (zwei Rauchwolken links). Die deutschen Schiffe feuern auf die schwer beschädigt ablaufende, schwarz qualmende Prince of Wales, hinter deren Deck Aufschläge sichtbar sind (Teleaufnahme)

Note the original photographer even pointed out he had screwed his telephoto lens onto his Leica. Perhaps Marc would translate this too, and we can avoid a side track into what Busch might have written subsequently.


Just to reiterate, I too believe there is little doubt these are a wild two gun salvo from PoW. Now we have finished with NH 69731 we can concentrate on how Claude Aylwin could possibly improve his firing in five seconds to achieve what Antonio claims. Having studied the gunnery of Denmark Straits intensively and "put the world to rights" over "plummeting shells" 25 years before Santarini rediscovered the same thing, maybe Mr Jurens would venture an opinion on that?

. there is only the salvo 19th, … the first in local control, ... of 2 shells and it is very well visible on the photo NH 69731.

falling thousands of yards short. Somehow without the benefit of any director or sophisticated computing equipment and while his ship and target are turning hard, Claude Aylwin fires a single gun 5 secs after the 19th falls and is "close BS stern" and 5 secs after that fires a second single gun which is " close to BS bow". Yes, that's right it sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous.

All the best

wadinga

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

@ Bill JUrens,

a great post, … I fully agree with … and a warning for the blind photo caption beleiver, …

Schmalenbach BS Warship profile and the Bundesarchiv captions of the 2 PoW shells falling close to the Bismarck we can see on the film to confirm your statements.

@ all,

we did the Bismarck and PoW shell details evaluation on this NH 69731 photo long time ago here in too.

But evidently who wrote above did not have the time and patience to read it.

Here we go again :


Nh69731_3_Bismarck_shells.JPG


A and B are the PoW shells.

1,2 and 3 are the Bismarck shells very close to the PoW into her smoke background.


Shells_Nh_69731.jpg


It does not take much to realize the difference both in dimension and in perspective.

The photographer was on the Prinz Eugen main deck as the reailing stanchion at midship do demonstrate, very low above the water anyway.

End of the demonstration, ... the call stand, ... and this is still the PoW first local control salvo of 2 shells ( as we can see ) landing at 06:03 and 30 seconds more or less., ... the PG film will start a bit later, ... when the Prinz Eugen will start her first turn to starboard.


Bye Antonio

If a 38cm salvo splash appears X numbers of pixels high at ~15k yds, how high will a 14in salvo appear to be at 2k Yds?

As Byron has pointed out there are some problems with this photo and the supposed 14in salvo splash appears to be on the horizon, therefore equidistant with the supposed salvo splash near what might be PoW.