Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: @ Herr Nilsson,

On Nh 69722, ... if you refer to the smoke you can see between Prinz Eugen turrets and the Bismarck ,... well ... my opinion is that it is the smoke from the Prinz Eugen just fired first salvo falling behind the cruiser ... and the fired cartridges you can see on Prinz Eugen main deck is confirming this ... but I like your opinion about this as well.

On Nh 69730 ... I am not able to follow your reasoning now ... can you explain me in more details what you mean ? Thanks

Bye Antonio :D
NH 69722: Bismarck fired her first salvo before Prinz Eugen.

NH 69730: :oops: hard to explain...at what point I'm loosing you? I'll to explain it:
The front of the admirals bridge, the funnel, the hangar and the main mast are illuminated. It's only possible when the secondary guns are firing or A or/and B. A and B are obiviously not firing. D is in the shadow of C. The source of light has to be further right (secondary guns). If C and/or D are firing D has to illuminated completely. It isn't. On several other pictures there is a greyish cloud coming out of the funnel (looks like steam). This cloud is behind the forward superstructure on NH 69730 and just above the secondary guns. If the secondary guns are firing this could is illuminated from below/behind.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

About Nh 69722, ... the photo seems to confirm Jasper fired a bit before Schneider did ... looking at that smoke and the PG fired cartridges, ... but again I am open to any solution based on common agreements about what we are looking at.

About Nh 69730, ... now I follow your explanation about Bismarck upperworks being illuminated ... and the logic supporting it and I agree with you. I need to study it a bit more ... while I think that your explanation about the huge smoke on the close background can be referred only to a part of it from the funnel ...not all of it since it is much higher and divided in two separated big clouds ... confirming, ... in my current opinion ... that a main turret salvo was just being fired before the secondary salvo was fired ... so the secondary flash is illuminating that previous big couple of smoke clouds on the close background.

Of course opinions welcome ... this is just the way I see it ... and I need to look more at the PG Film as well as at some Tirpitz gunnery exercise photos too ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@ Antonio

NH 69722: Brinkmann states Bismarck fired first.
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Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

Ok, I see it ... no problems, ... maybe the first Bismarck salvo smoke ... was left behind what we are looking at close to her.

What about the other salvos ? Are you ok with those ?

What about my excel matrix timing connecting both German as well as British side main events ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson »

I agree with Alecsandros that there are two semi salvos at 05:41. I disagree with you in regard NH 69730. The smoke looks too puny for a main artillery salvo. I have problems to identify salvo 11 landing. The counting of the salvos is per se speculative.
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Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

OK, so it seems there is a general agreement on the fact that at 05.41 not one but 2 salvos of 4 guns have been fired, so both forward ( a+B ) and aft 8 C+D ) group turrets.
This evidence adds up one more salvo between my previous counter between 17th and 18th.

OK, I see you position about Nh 69730 and salvo 25th.

What is your problem on the film showed salvo 11th ? Are you able to see the pillars of water around the PoW immediately before her salvo 16th is departing from her turrets ?

Of course the salvo counter is speculative, ... but we must have a reference point to refer to, ... while communicating as you can see ... otherwise it will be very difficult to keep track of our entries ... and update the status of our findings.

Again, ... I remind that the 26/104 as salvo is only presumed ... it can end up been a lot more, ... like 27/108 or 28/112 ... 29/116, ... 30/120 ... or even down to 25/100 or 24/96.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson »

I finally found the pillars in salvo 11. Are they defintely from Bismarck or perhaps from Prinz Eugen?

For communication purposes I'm fine with your salvo counter, in other respects not. To be honest I still have a problem with a lot of assumptions you/we made... not only the salvo counter. The 40 shells the baron mentioned are questionable. The Rowell salvo plot is disputable. The Prinz Eugen battle map is even more disputable.
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Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Herr Nilsson wrote: "...pillars in salvo 11. Are they definitely from Bismarck or perhaps from Prinz Eugen?"
Hi Marc,
I would doubt such huge pillars (higher than PoW tower) can be 8" shells as seen from 15000 yards with a "8mm" camera..... opinions welcome.
PoW_compass_hit_BS (2).jpg
PoW_compass_hit_BS (2).jpg (27.51 KiB) Viewed 768 times
Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga »

Hi Alberto,

Surely they are more likely to be PG 8" HE exploding on water impact, than 15" diving beneath the surface. Jasper says "since their impacts differentiated them well from other hits. The impacts stood out as high white water columns........"

Antonio has "nailed" his timetable for those film segments looking at Bismarck to relatively small splashes which he says are 14" HE. And as far as I can make out the only thing that identifies them as local control shots from Y turret is that if you can only see a single splash in the camera field of view, that means they must be a single shot salvo. And the only single shot salvoes are those fired from a twisting, heeling, Y turret under local control with a primitive F/C calculator at a target which has made a 50 degree turn away in the previous two minutes. Unbelievably good shooting by Aylwin and the Marines! :D Or is this sequence from another time?

Is it not possible there are simultaneous splashes outside the limited field of view of the camera? :think:

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Steve Crandell »

For what it's worth, 8" AP splashes are about 60' high and 12"+ are about 150' high. The difference between 8" AP and 8" HE would most likely be that the HE makes a more "feathery" splash (wider) which dissipates more quickly than AP.
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Sean, I agree. There is possibly another splash visible near Bismarck
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Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Steve Crandell wrote: "8" AP splashes are about 60' high and 12"+ are about 150' high. The difference between 8" AP and 8" HE would most likely be that the HE makes a more "feathery" splash (wider) which dissipates more quickly than AP."
Hi Steve,
Many thanks, I was almost saying the same from other sources (203 cm Italian gun (8") was creating about 18 meters high columns and the 381 mm gun (15") 50+ meters) !

Wadinga wrote: "Surely they are more likely to be PG 8" "
Hi Sean,
not at all. They are very well visible and much higher (even in a bad quality 8mm film) than PoW tower (that is around 35 meters) and they appear to have the same dimensions than the 14" water columns we see in PG film near Bismarck.

They are 15" shells.

Bye, Alberto


P.S. I don't even take into account your attempt to insinuate (without providing as usual an alternative timing..... :negative: ) that the landing shells we see in PG film are not salvo 20 and 21 fired by PoW in local control. Due to the battle geometry, never PG could have been alongside Bismarck at any time before 6:03, while Bismarck turrets are trained aft to port......
I heard about someone who was reversing photos to support his own agenda, but here it's not even possible to achieve this by just reversing images....... :lol:
Perhaps the water columns are depth charges that Nazi propaganda delivered to increase the interest in the boring PG film..... :think:
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Steve Crandell,

many thanks for your explanation on the differences between a 8inch shell splash and a 12+ shell splash.
That defines once again, and hopefully for good, what we are looking at on that film frame and photos.
Surely those are 15 and 14inch shells.

@ Alberto,

thanks for your additional confirmation and support on my work.
I agree with you about the way to read and uniquely associate the film sequence showing the last PoW local control salvos 20 and 21 to the Bismarck position after the 06:03 turn to starboard, by simply looking at her course in relation to Prinz Eugen and her forward turrets extreme rotation back/aft to port while firing to PoW. There is no other possibility or time frame possible.
In fact, everybody should know at this point which salvos were fired by PoW after Bismarck turn to starboard, while Prinz Eugen was turning to starboard too at 06:03:45 seconds.

@ Wadinga,

it seems that you are among the ones having a lot of difficulties realizing what I have stated above for PoW local control salvos 20 and 21. I have already demonstrated you this fact here above twice. But, if you like to sustain further more your position and provide me a similar demonstration of your different opinion and your theory, please do so and provide your version and supporting evidence of your hypothesis.

I think we do not need to cover anymore the 8 vs 14/15 inch shell splashes, since this incorrect hypothesis from your side has been already over killed here above ... and when we discussed at first months ago about it.

Please, while still doing your useless defense of Capt Leach actions at any cost, ... trying to deny in any way you can all I am presenting in line of principle even if they are demonstrated being correct with supporting evidence, ... avoid to offend the Officers and sailors of PoW doing with honor, courage and competence their duty, because it is unfair and not respectful, not elegant and not honorable.
I take this chance to remind you that according to G. Brooke book account, it was Capt Leach which felt his duty, after his retreat decision, to explain his Officers and crew the reasons why he did that, and it is not usual in any Royal Navy warship as far as I know, ... and not the opposite.

Aylwin and his Royal Marines on PoW Y turret were just doing their duty, and they did well as far as we can finally realize.

@ Herr Nilsson,

can you please explain us on what you agree with Sean ? Thanks.

I know about that film detail you are talking about, but this do not move away the PoW last local salvos 20th and 21st from where they belong, ... referencing the above explanations.
In case you will succesfully demostrate that being a shell splash, ... which I think is not possible, ... at the most you have to start another additional very difficult demonstration, ... about PoW having fired 5 shells in local control, so 2+1+2 and not 4 like reported 2+1+1 as we can see on our current evidences.
Of course it is up to you to decide if you want to go down that path, ... which I do not support, ... but that will be the only goal possible at the end, ... nothing else.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Antonio,

I agree with Sean that even we can't see more splashes it doesn't necessarily mean that there are no additional splashes.
The salvo plot timing does not correlate to the timing on the German maps. It's quite possible that the splashes are from salvo 17 or 18.
Regards

Marc

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

It is disappointing that you are so certain of your hypothesis that you seemingly take any questioning as a personal affront. IMHO there are very few "proven facts" in it at all, just a set of postulations which some apparently find more convincing than others :cool: We are just talking about the German courses here, as the Conspiracy theory stuff is beyond rational argument anymore.

Since you have apparently accounted for all the later local control salvoes, have you an insight into why are they so unbelievably accurate compared with that seen in NH 69731 which you believe is PoW salvo 19 falling many hundreds of yards short? Somehow without the benefit of either DCT's elevated sighting position, Aylwin through his Y turret periscope, correctly spots and divines the predicted range and puts his next shot salvo 20, 30 seconds later by your reckoning, within a few tens of metres of PG's starboard quarter, and the next just 20 seconds after that, without even the benefit of spotting the previous fall of shot, a little further adrift off PG's starboard beam. All of which is achieved whilst PoW is twisting and turning like a snipe (a 35,000 snipe that is). BTW since all these salvoes are closer to PG than Bismarck, which ship is he shooting at?

It is interesting that the maps of Paul Schmalenbach in Warship Profile , The Baron in his book and Ulrich Elfrath reproduced in Santarini all ignore the Gefechtschizze for PG's track and depict a double scissor course with PG cutting across from Bismarck's starboard bow to the port bow about 05:55 and then chopping back across the flagship's bows just before 06:00. Elfrath in particular shows a right angle crossing exactly as recorded in the Bundesarchive photo and NH 69729. Schmalenbach actually shows PG stern-on to PoW at 06:00.

According to these gentlemen (well not Elfrath) who were actually at the Battle of the Denmark Strait, (unlike any of us) the positional relationship between BS and PG which most closely fits the film and most of the NH series is between 05:56 and maybe 05:58 only, because PG was always to starboard of the flagship otherwise. BTW since this is moments before Hood's destruction it is no wonder it shows rapid fire. Oh and the shells landing so close to PG's starboard side would be.................... from Hood.

I'm sorry once again to refer to diagrams I cannot reproduce. Elfrath from Santarini should be possible from some other contributors, Schmalenbach from Warship Profile a little harder.

For Alberto: I don't insinuate Antonio's precise salvo timing for BS is unsupportable, I flat out declare it :lol: Drawing a track for Bismarck based on his ordering of the photographs is a theory, no more. He does not replicate the position shown in the Bundesarchive photo and NH 69729 of 90 degree intersection.

All the best

wadinga
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