Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:14 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

sorry I should have write the unit measure in meters on the table.

Here some data for the gun reload :

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.php
Rate Of Fire : 2.3 to 3 rounds per minute
and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_cm_SK_C/34_naval_gun
According to German manuals [3] the required permanent capacity for the loading equipment for ammunition was 2.5 shells per minute. During testing period at the Baltic Sea the AVKS Report states an output of the ammunition delivery system up to 3.125 shells per minute.[5] Under battle conditions Bismarck averaged roughly one round per minute in her battle with HMS Hood and Prince of Wales.[6]
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Cag » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:56 pm

Hi All

Hi Antonio I hope you're well. Thanks very much so around 25 to 26 seconds or should I be more cautious and say 30 seconds?

Thanks again
Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:31 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

I am fine thanks, ... a lot busy doing modeling now, ... and with my Tirpitz 3rd book, ... :wink: ... reading in here from time to time and unless something really interesting will arise, ... I leave you discussing further more, ... what has been well covered on the past 14 years of discussion about this battle.

Between 25 to 30 seconds is ok in my personal opinion.

Still be very careful about the guns reloading time and the real rate of fire that Bismarck was keeping that morning.

Reasons not to waste too many ammunitions were many, ... and I think that Kvt Kpt Schneider was carefully firing his guns looking at the number of time he fired them, ... and the ammunition expenditure from 05.55 until 06.09, ... only 93 shells.

If you look again my table you will see that average each gun fired one shot every minute, ... more or less, ... so plenty of time to reload the guns, ... and have them ready to be fired, ... only after a very careful spotting and adjustement executed.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:12 pm

Hello Antonio,

Over on another thread Alberto is claiming Bismarck developed her fastest rate after PoW turned away but a year ago you were saying the opposite:
Between 25 to 30 seconds is ok in my personal opinion.

Still be very careful about the guns reloading time and the real rate of fire that Bismarck was keeping that morning.

Reasons not to waste too many ammunitions were many, ... and I think that Kvt Kpt Schneider was carefully firing his guns looking at the number of time he fired them, ... and the ammunition expenditure from 05.55 until 06.09, ... only 93 shells.

If you look again my table you will see that average each gun fired one shot every minute
,


But averages are meaningless. When the range and time of flight are short, and you are hitting why would you sit around for 30 seconds after each shot? That is not carefully evaluating anything. If your fire control solution is not perfect, the longer you wait, the further out you are when you do eventually shoot. When the range and time of flight are short, and you are hitting you conserve ammunition by shooting as fast as loading times allow.

Why when you are turning hard and heeling over and your guns are struggling to keep up with change of direction and your target is obscured by smoke and also turning hard and your spotting is irrelevant by the time the next solution is required, would you fire at maximum rate as supposedly shown on the film? Of course not.


Because your timetable is fundamentally flawed and always has been.


Alberto has been reproducing his Tedious Table over and over and asserts that more than the single value 93 shots is real, and not guessed or made-up in the Bismarck line. We know 108 "ordered" shots is assumed/made-up. Dunmunro disputes the first shot time starting the apocryphal 14 minute period and the cease fire time of 06:09 comes from where? PG 's cease fire order is given as 06:09, but that does not mean she actually fired her last salvo at that time. During about 14 minutes Bismarck may have fired at close to her minimum reloading time as you have mentioned above or may have stopped firing altogether, as PoW did when turning at maximum rate. Dividing shots fired into available seconds is the crudest of crude approximations, and disproved by the film even if it does run a little fast.


There is a photo from PG of Bismarck having just fired a salvo involving both fore and aft turret groups when immediately between PG and her target, judging by Bismarck's barrel alignment. A salvo, possibly an 8 gun broadside, has probably been fired a few seconds before 06:09. This says nothing at all about the timing of salvoes before that. It does not tell us when Cease Fire was ordered in Bismarck.


The Baron does not say when Bismarck fired her last salvo, only the Schmalenbach map, derided by yourself, has the legend but does that apply to Bismarck or PG? So the 840 seconds are not supported by any original source.



All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:26 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "During about 14 minutes Bismarck may have fired at close to her minimum reloading time as you have mentioned above or may have stopped firing altogether"
No witness said Bismarck ever ceased fire during the whole engagement.

The PG film + photos show that after 6:03 she fired several salvos (the timing is given by associating PG track with Bismarck position, as done by Antonio in his reconstruction, when Mr.Wadinga will be able to propose a different credible track for the German ships, showing us when the film and the photos were taken, we will discuss. :lol:
Until then, after 6:03 the RoF of Bismarck was still almost the same as before, as it was PoW RoF since the beginning of the engagement (range acquired or not).

5:55 (open fire) and 6:09 (cease fire) come from the German official documents: as Mr.Wadinga has no evidence demonstrating the contrary , these timings are proven (thus around 14 minutes fight).

Average figures may be meaningless in a 2 hours battle, but in an extremely short engagement (14 mins for BS and 8,5 for PoW) they are more than meaningful, and extremely clear.


The above are the facts, all Mr.Wadinga post is just his own speculation supported by NOTHING at all.


Wadinga wrote: "possibly an 8 gun broadside, has probably been fired a few seconds before 06:09"
At last, I agree ! :clap:
This is the same way I personally read the photo BA-146-1984-055-16), thus 12 semi-salvos (instead of the 11 from Antonio table http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 300#p68607) after 6:03 and this is why my preferred figure for the ordered shots is 112 and not 108.....



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:19 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:26 pm


The PG film + photos show that after 6:03 she fired several salvos (the timing is given by associating PG track with Bismarck position, as done by Antonio in his reconstruction, when Mr.Wadinga will be able to propose a different credible track for the German ships, showing us when the film and the photos were taken, we will discuss.


Bye, Alberto

The ultimate conspiracy tactic.

I propose some complete nonsense based on data which don't allow for any interpretation (e.g. counting shells and drawing battlemaps based on short snippets from untimed film). Since you don't want to do the same impossible and thus completely useless exercise (because you still have at least half a brain in your cranium), my nonsense is valid.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:05 am

Hello everybody,
a hoolingan (whose contribution to discussion has been zero, only insults) wrote: "you still have at least half a brain in your cranium"
while he obviously has no brain at all :kaput: , ONLY HIS IMPOTENT CHILDISH ANGER against what has been demonstrated by Antonio, destroying his loved 75+years old fairy-tale.

There is no other timing before 6:03 when Bismarck can be on 270° course, but this guy has not yet understood it :stubborn: and being unable to counter the fact, he pretends that it is "impossible" to reconstruct the battle at all). :lol:

The ultimate denial tactic.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:16 am

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto,

it is a waste of time with totally incompetent and ignorant persons as it shows. They miss base events knowledge.

The German side documents and witness accounts seems to have been totally ignored.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:02 am

So what german documents are there to deduce number and timing of shells of Bismarck? This would only be in the gunnery report of Bismarck. Do you have this? Or do you believe that somebody on PE did the counting and timing for Bismarck gunnery? If so, please provide the info. Otherwise, please spare us the fairy tale of "german documents".

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:06 am

Hello everybody,

Q.E.D.
being totally ignorant about the battle and the related documents, this hooligan is not even aware of Lutjens' sent message (I would say a most official evidence....) stating that Bismarck expended 93 shells during the battle.
Even his fellow denier says this is factual information, but this guy is too ignorant and arrogant to read other people posts:
Wadinga wrote: "The only factual information in the Bismarck line of the tedious Table is "93" rounds total....."
:lol: :lol: :lol:



Of course this denier at any cost will now try to say that Lutjens was sending false info to Berlin when transmitting from the Bismarck, revealing his only intent: defend Leach and diminish PoW performance vs Bismarck.... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:03 pm

Hello Alberto,



Reposted to the correct thread
....however the film + the photos (that are surely more reliable than any witnesses)

You mean your interpretation of a film which shows Bismarck firing more rapidly that one round per gun per minute but which you pretend doesn't, is more reliable than the observations of people who were there???

It is still only your interpretation, just like Antonio contradicting the man who took the photograph and also the caption in De Ersten Gefecht. In fact this witness material puts this still photo and the movie at a point before Hood was sunk exactly when you would expect Bismarck to develop maximum firing rate. If she sheered out to starboard at the same time, it merely means Antonio's map is wrong.
Also PG continued to fire "quickly" after 6:04 (her own turn), until Lutjens ordered to cease fire at 6:09, as per Jasper GAR
Nowhere does Jasper say PG fired "quickly" (in the English translation) that is a made-up "FACT". What he says is that firing continued during turns but was disrupted.
The battery was twice temporarily and laterally displaced from the target during this evolution.
You scored a good point with "Rapid" but Jasper contradicts himself when he says firing was disrupted during turns. Disruption stops rapid firing being rapid.
Jasper says he received the order not to shoot over Bismarck from "ship's command", nothing mentioning Bismarck, orders from Lutjens or whether Bismarck stopped shooting, coincidentally, at the same time, or even earlier.

There are no "official documents" to say Lutjens ordered "Cease fire in Bismarck at 06:09 that is an assumption based on PG.
PG's manoeuvres made it impossible to keep any guns on target at certain times, why would Bismarck's violent turns make it any easier for her? If PG'S shooting was temporarily disrupted, why wouldn't Bismarck's be? PoW's certainly was, she ceased fire until her course stabilised somewhat and Y turret loosed off its local control rounds.

The only factual information in the Bismarck line of the tedious Table is "93" rounds total and even that might include rounds unloaded through the muzzle to avoid them "cooking off" in the barrels.
All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:48 pm

Hello everybody,

again a desperate denial attempt from this guy:
Wadinga wrote: "In fact this witness material puts this still photo and the movie at a point before Hood was sunk exactly when you would expect Bismarck to develop maximum firing rate"
Mr.Wadinga insists: he should show us WHEN Bismarck was on course 270° when firing at Hood: his proposed battlemap will make all us laugh. :lol:


Wadinga wrote: "There are no "official documents" to say Lutjens ordered "Cease fire in Bismarck at 06:09 that is an assumption based on PG. "
...and PG KTB is an official document. If Mr.Wadinga wants to move BS cease fire, he should show us when PG was on the port side of Bismarck before 6:09 (as per his mentioned photo BA-146-1984-055-16)... :lol: :lol: :lol:



Better for him to accept once forever the reconstruction of the battle done by Antonio and the consequent BS salvo chart (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 300#p68607)



Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:11 pm

Hello Alberto,

Since you're very good on the PG KTB, when does it record Lutjens telling Bismarck to cease fire?

I think in the Baron's book the only reference to cease fire time is on Schmalenbach's map, which Antonio has "rubbished" in your terms :cool: , because it does not fit in with his assertions.

Of course Schmalenbach was actually at the battle of the Denmark Straits, just like the Baron, and the map shows Bismarck turning to starboard astern of PG before Hood is sunk, just as depicted in the film and the "Single shell splash photo".

Does Schmalenbach's map make you laugh? Santarini is not laughing and he uses Elfrath version of the Schmalenbach map.
he should show us when PG was on the port side of Bismarck before 6:09 (as per his mentioned photo BA-146-1984-055-16)...



Don't you mean to starboard of Bismarck, just as depicted in the above maps?


All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:00 pm

Hello everybody,
my mistake, I meant: when could Bismarck be on the port side of PG before 6:09 ? Only according to old maps already proven wrong by Antonio and, even before, already amended by the Baron when he published his book....

Isn't it enough to be ridiculed once by Antonio (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 195#p68342) ?
Is Mr.Wadinga choosing battlemaps randomly just to support his crazy theory of Bismarck turning away before sinking Hood ? :lol:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:59 pm

Hello Alberto,

Frankly, being ridiculed by Antonio is a mark of honour these days, most of the best people have been.

All of the maps "rubbished" by Antonio have some familial characteristics. They were generated by people who were actually there. They are intended to give an impression of the relative positions of Bismarck and PG. They show Bismarck turning away to starboard before Hood is sunk, leaving PG on the engaged side, and as a result allowing the Propaganda Kompanie personnel to film Bismarck's port side with rapid fire, and Hood's shells landing in the foreground, from the relative safety of PG's sheltered starboard side. It doesn't have to be 270 degrees course for Bismarck, 260 or so as these maps show will do fine, just diverging from PG is enough.

This turning away by Bismarck earlier, explains the illogicality Antonio has always incorporated into his distorted map, ie that the warned ship turns away before the ship giving the torpedo alarm. Now we have a sensible solution. PG does her own gyration relative to the spurious warning of imaginary torpedoes, just when the flagship is turning back having despatched one opponent and seeing the other turning away. Maybe the torpedo warning puts Lutjens off chasing his opponent, maybe he thinks about the mission objective.

They show Bismarck turning toward the enemy when Hood is destroyed, at the same time PG is turning away and the right angle crossing with Bismarck seen from dead ahead by the PK people on PG's port side- far too close. PG then swings round to take station on the unengaged side of the flagship, fouling her own range as she does, after three major turns as described by Jasper, so sharp as to disrupt her shooting. Bismarck herself has a made a major turn back, disrupting her fire control solution on the fast disappearing PoW thus resulting in only 93 shells being expended, the rate of fire having dropped off at the end of the fight.

No wonder Santarini uses Elfrath's map despite including Antonio's effort in his sources.

All the best

wadinga
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