Hi All,
Thank you Herr Nilsson, I have been trying to understand the PoW plot in relation to the movements of Bismarck.
Using the 220 degree course and the three ranges of the three hits I have found it difficult as placing Bismarck's 220 course on any one of the three hits in combination with the PoW's course means a missmatch. The best match, as per Antonio's suggestion, is placing 220 from the 2nd hit position but this means hit one would have been over by 1000yds?
I'll continue to play around with courses etc, but thanks to Herr Nilsson as his work may help as I'm now running out of paper!
Best wishes,
Cag.
Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Moderator: Bill Jurens
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
it was CAG and not Sean (Wadinga), but it does not matter, ... I see what you mean now, ... very interesting indeed ...
If I read correctly your exercise, ... you took my suggestion to CAG :
... and you put in discussion the real PoW turning point from course 300 to 280 moving it ahead just before the salvo 9th, ... just after 05:57 when she really fired for the first time the Y turret with open A arcs aft, ... basically you did this :
In this way you realigned all the salvos before salvo 9th ... so from 1 to 8 included, ... to a new 300 course until 05:57 for PoW and obviously the Bismarck track based on the new set of distances is now correct for a 220 degree course and salvo 6th is straddling Bismarck ... am I correct ?
Obviously you are working on the PoW Gunnery plot map, ... not on the Rowell map, ... since you use the PoW salvos.
Very interesting ... and supported by the PoW Y turret open fire point ... with A Arcs opened at salvo 9th ...
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nilsson,
it was CAG and not Sean (Wadinga), but it does not matter, ... I see what you mean now, ... very interesting indeed ...
If I read correctly your exercise, ... you took my suggestion to CAG :
In reality Bismarck was on main course 220 degrees following the Prinz Eugen, ... even if she probably made avoidance manoeuvres.
I think that PoW course 280 degrees is correct too and that the reason for the mismatch should be focused on the salvo 6., ... since 9 and 13 are almost correct for 220 degres of the enemy ... the 6 is not, ... but that, ... at the beginning, ... is where also the precision of PoW data I think was less accurate, ... improving after ... from 9 and after until 13 ...
... and you put in discussion the real PoW turning point from course 300 to 280 moving it ahead just before the salvo 9th, ... just after 05:57 when she really fired for the first time the Y turret with open A arcs aft, ... basically you did this :
- Maps_Rowell_PoW_Gunnery_01.jpg (42.81 KiB) Viewed 1187 times
Obviously you are working on the PoW Gunnery plot map, ... not on the Rowell map, ... since you use the PoW salvos.
Very interesting ... and supported by the PoW Y turret open fire point ... with A Arcs opened at salvo 9th ...
Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
basically this correlation :
Am I reading your hypothesis in the correct way ?
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nilsson,
basically this correlation :
- PoW_opening_A_Arcs_02.jpg (91.2 KiB) Viewed 1186 times
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
I think so.
...but I wouldn't call it hypothesis. I was just playing around. And even if the result may be intriguing it raises more questions than it solves.
...but I wouldn't call it hypothesis. I was just playing around. And even if the result may be intriguing it raises more questions than it solves.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
I see, ... in any case it does make sense.
Can you be a little more specific about your statement : " ... it raises more questions than it solves ... "
Thanks and Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nilsson,
I see, ... in any case it does make sense.
Can you be a little more specific about your statement : " ... it raises more questions than it solves ... "
Thanks and Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
@Antonio
For example, why drawing the track like it was drawn with an annotation that is inconsistent with it. I do not understand it. It seems to be an error, but is it an error at all? Or do we possibly read such maps the wrong way. And if not, what does it mean. As I said before: there are a lot of things I still do not understand and everything is in progress. I can't offer a well formed solution and I probably never will. And when I said that your theory leads to a dead end, then it wasn't because I want to diminish your achievements or discredit you, but because I think we (I will not exempt myself from it) based our opinions/interpretations on things we took for granted or even facts. To be honest it seems to me that there are not many "facts" left anymore and I'm afraid we will lose the Prinz Eugen battle track next. I already did.
For example, why drawing the track like it was drawn with an annotation that is inconsistent with it. I do not understand it. It seems to be an error, but is it an error at all? Or do we possibly read such maps the wrong way. And if not, what does it mean. As I said before: there are a lot of things I still do not understand and everything is in progress. I can't offer a well formed solution and I probably never will. And when I said that your theory leads to a dead end, then it wasn't because I want to diminish your achievements or discredit you, but because I think we (I will not exempt myself from it) based our opinions/interpretations on things we took for granted or even facts. To be honest it seems to me that there are not many "facts" left anymore and I'm afraid we will lose the Prinz Eugen battle track next. I already did.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
I understand all your points and doubts Marc, ... many are mine as well.
But instead of dropping the efforts, ... my opinion is that we ... together, ... without any agenda or side to protect ... can do a work that so far nobody did on those 75 years.
For example I have already an idea on how to resolve that PoW course enigma ... by using the other available PoW maps and information .... and now I am curious to know the one about Prinz Eugen battle map ...
Again, ... together as a team ... and we are a good team ... we can realize a better re-construction of those events, ... just for the fun of it, ... for passion and for the pleasure and satisfaction of doing it.
Nothing else ... and be sure that nobody can do better than us currently.
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nilsson,
I understand all your points and doubts Marc, ... many are mine as well.
But instead of dropping the efforts, ... my opinion is that we ... together, ... without any agenda or side to protect ... can do a work that so far nobody did on those 75 years.
For example I have already an idea on how to resolve that PoW course enigma ... by using the other available PoW maps and information .... and now I am curious to know the one about Prinz Eugen battle map ...
Again, ... together as a team ... and we are a good team ... we can realize a better re-construction of those events, ... just for the fun of it, ... for passion and for the pleasure and satisfaction of doing it.
Nothing else ... and be sure that nobody can do better than us currently.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
@Antonio
*sigh* My perception is you have an agenda....and you haven't do anything to dispel my reservations recently. I would love to collaborate with you, but I'm afraid my approach to evaluate things seems to be incompatible with yours. I've no idea to solve this dilemma, maybe you have.
In regard of the Prinz Eugen track:
Have a look at the track, have a look at the pictures. The track can't be right.
*sigh* My perception is you have an agenda....and you haven't do anything to dispel my reservations recently. I would love to collaborate with you, but I'm afraid my approach to evaluate things seems to be incompatible with yours. I've no idea to solve this dilemma, maybe you have.
In regard of the Prinz Eugen track:
Have a look at the track, have a look at the pictures. The track can't be right.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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alecsandros
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
... When all is said and done,
Do we have ANY solid information coming from men on board Bismarck that can be used to create a chart ?
IS there different primary info which has not published ? (For instance, we know the great torpedo-attack chart picturing May 26/27th VIan destroyers torpedo attack. That map plots numerous Bismarck course changes. How was it produced ?)
viewtopic.php?t=342
Do we have ANY solid information coming from men on board Bismarck that can be used to create a chart ?
IS there different primary info which has not published ? (For instance, we know the great torpedo-attack chart picturing May 26/27th VIan destroyers torpedo attack. That map plots numerous Bismarck course changes. How was it produced ?)
viewtopic.php?t=342
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
Marc, I do have an agenda, but only the one on my iPad, Personal Computer and Smartphone, managing my working days.
Apart this one, I have no other agenda and you are free to believe me, or to have your opinion about it.
Please forget the " Cover Up " synopsis stuffs, that is an existing fact that is demonstrated by simply reading the available documents we have long discussed about, from Tovey, Wake-Walker, Phillips, Ellis, Leach etc etc etc ...
One can have his own opinion about it, ... and I have mine, ... there is no need of any hidden agenda to read what was written 75 years ago and form an opinion about it.
Sean ( Wadinga ), the above invitation is regarding you as well, ... like everybody else of course.
If you can manage the different personal approaches, ... like I do, ... I would like to have your help as well as the one of Sean and everybody else here in, ... as usual, ... but with no side taken and no pre-conceived views.
Everybody can keep his own opinion on the way to evaluate the outcome, ... because it is on the outcome of the analysis of the available material we should be focusing on, ... rather than on the personal opinions.
I do not want nor I like to force anybody, ... and again ... no agenda's and a positive cooperation on the works.
I think I know already what you mean about the Prinz Eugen map, ... and if you remember we already worked a bit about it together years ago, ... and that is what I would like to continue now, ... because at that time I had to resolve the " Reversed photo theory issue " ...and I am sorry for not having spent more time with you on your interesting evaluations ... the Nh 69730 being a clear example of your good work ...
So, I renew the invitation now, .... lets proceed in a positive cooperation for everybody benefit and fun here in ... and I will tell you what I have found interesting on the PoW maps ...
P.S. I read time ago that you already know that there are more photos to be evaluated than the ones published so far ...
@ Alecsandros,
you asked :
In the other hand I have prime source usable information not from the Bismarck survivors I have interviewed, but I do from Prinz Eugen ones.
How that sounds ?
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nilsson,
Marc, I do have an agenda, but only the one on my iPad, Personal Computer and Smartphone, managing my working days.
Apart this one, I have no other agenda and you are free to believe me, or to have your opinion about it.
Please forget the " Cover Up " synopsis stuffs, that is an existing fact that is demonstrated by simply reading the available documents we have long discussed about, from Tovey, Wake-Walker, Phillips, Ellis, Leach etc etc etc ...
One can have his own opinion about it, ... and I have mine, ... there is no need of any hidden agenda to read what was written 75 years ago and form an opinion about it.
Sean ( Wadinga ), the above invitation is regarding you as well, ... like everybody else of course.
If you can manage the different personal approaches, ... like I do, ... I would like to have your help as well as the one of Sean and everybody else here in, ... as usual, ... but with no side taken and no pre-conceived views.
Everybody can keep his own opinion on the way to evaluate the outcome, ... because it is on the outcome of the analysis of the available material we should be focusing on, ... rather than on the personal opinions.
I do not want nor I like to force anybody, ... and again ... no agenda's and a positive cooperation on the works.
I think I know already what you mean about the Prinz Eugen map, ... and if you remember we already worked a bit about it together years ago, ... and that is what I would like to continue now, ... because at that time I had to resolve the " Reversed photo theory issue " ...and I am sorry for not having spent more time with you on your interesting evaluations ... the Nh 69730 being a clear example of your good work ...
So, I renew the invitation now, .... lets proceed in a positive cooperation for everybody benefit and fun here in ... and I will tell you what I have found interesting on the PoW maps ...
P.S. I read time ago that you already know that there are more photos to be evaluated than the ones published so far ...
@ Alecsandros,
you asked :
We do from both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen witnesses not anymore with us and that I never personally interviewed.Do we have ANY solid information coming from men on board Bismarck that can be used to create a chart ?
In the other hand I have prime source usable information not from the Bismarck survivors I have interviewed, but I do from Prinz Eugen ones.
How that sounds ?
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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alecsandros
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
It sounds hazy...
How about that map of Vian torpedo attacks on May 26th ? Any idea how was that map produced ?
How about that map of Vian torpedo attacks on May 26th ? Any idea how was that map produced ?
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
You still have difficulties to distinguish facts from opinions. You really remind me of the pink elephant in Pixar's "Inside out".Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
Marc, I do have an agenda, but only the one on my iPad, Personal Computer and Smartphone, managing my working days.
Apart this one, I have no other agenda and you are free to believe me, or to have your opinion about it.
Please forget the " Cover Up " synopsis stuffs, that is an existing fact that is demonstrated by simply reading the available documents we have long discussed about, from Tovey, Wake-Walker, Phillips, Ellis, Leach etc etc etc ...
One can have his own opinion about it, ... and I have mine, ... there is no need of any hidden agenda to read what was written 75 years ago and form an opinion about it.
Sean ( Wadinga ), the above invitation is regarding you as well, ... like everybody else of course.
If you can manage the different personal approaches, ... like I do, ... I would like to have your help as well as the one of Sean and everybody else here in, ... as usual, ... but with no side taken and no pre-conceived views.
Everybody can keep his own opinion on the way to evaluate the outcome, ... because it is on the outcome of the analysis of the available material we should be focusing on, ... rather than on the personal opinions.
I do not want nor I like to force anybody, ... and again ... no agenda's and a positive cooperation on the works.
I think I know already what you mean about the Prinz Eugen map, ... and if you remember we already worked a bit about it together years ago, ... and that is what I would like to continue now, ... because at that time I had to resolve the " Reversed photo theory issue " ...and I am sorry for not having spent more time with you on your interesting evaluations ... the Nh 69730 being a clear example of your good work ...
So, I renew the invitation now, .... lets proceed in a positive cooperation for everybody benefit and fun here in ... and I will tell you what I have found interesting on the PoW maps ...
P.S. I read time ago that you already know that there are more photos to be evaluated than the ones published so far ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWrG6l-5CAg
Anyway, yes, I got three additional pictures from Josef Kaiser years ago.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
I see, ... well the ones having difficulties reading and understanding Tovey, Wake-Walker and Ellis declaration mismatches, ... remind me a lot the Black Knight in Monty Python movie ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw
I know very well Herr Kaiser 3 photos you refer to, ... but there are more ...
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nilsson,
I see, ... well the ones having difficulties reading and understanding Tovey, Wake-Walker and Ellis declaration mismatches, ... remind me a lot the Black Knight in Monty Python movie ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw
I know very well Herr Kaiser 3 photos you refer to, ... but there are more ...
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
-
Herr Nilsson
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- Location: Germany
Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
I see, ... well the ones having difficulties reading and understanding Tovey, Wake-Walker and Ellis declaration mismatches, ... remind me a lot the Black Knight in Monty Python movie ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw
I really like that scene. I always did. 
...and I finally realised that you really believe that you have no agenda, if you consider your interpretation as a given fact. So proceed King Arthur or better King Antonio. You've won. It's just tragic irony that you need all the people, who are not agreeing with you, all the black knights so much more than the few, who do agree with you. You really need us. I'm wondering how many defeated black knights you can afford and how many sweet-talking invititations I will read in this forum to hold the crippled ones in line. As for me I resign. I'm the first black knight you defeated and I will no longer do your homework for you and help you unintentionally by challenging your theory. Do it yourself or look for another fool.
Yes, there are more.Antonio Bonomi wrote:
I know very well Herr Kaiser 3 photos you refer to, ... but there are more ...
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
-
Antonio Bonomi
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- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nilsson,
Marc, I think that it is time to stop talking about the " Cover Up " and put it away forever, including the ironic comments about it.
This said I propose to move forward, of course if you still would like to, since I do not need nor want to force anybody here.
What about the comments on the Schmalenbach/Baron/Rohwer battle map ?
Can we start from there now ?
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nilsson,
Marc, I think that it is time to stop talking about the " Cover Up " and put it away forever, including the ironic comments about it.
This said I propose to move forward, of course if you still would like to, since I do not need nor want to force anybody here.
What about the comments on the Schmalenbach/Baron/Rohwer battle map ?
Can we start from there now ?
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )