Bismarck firing procedures at DS

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

no, it is impossible.

Those salvos have been fired after the photo Nh 69731, ... showing salvo 19th, ... not before.

Bye Antonio

[Alberto Virtuani]

Herr Nilsson wrote: "The salvo plot timing does not correlate to the timing on the German maps. It's quite possible that the splashes are from salvo 17 or 18."

Hi Marc,
it's well possible, but only in a completely different battle scenario, where Bismarck leaves the battlefield before PoW as in the film she is firing aft while salvo 17 and 18 were fired at the beginning of the turn from PoW........

Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hi Alberto,

According to Antonio's map on the Hood website Bismarck turns at 06:02:50 seconds, more or less the same time as PoW. It has always puzzled me why he shows Bismarck turning to avoid the imaginary torpedoes before PG does.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Wadinga wrote: "According to Antonio's map on the Hood website Bismarck turns at 06:02:50 seconds, more or less the same time as PoW"

Hi Sean,
I'm afraid not. On his map from 2005, Bismarck starts her turn (50°) at 6:03 and ends the turn at 6:03:30. PoW starts her turn (160°) at 6:01:30 and ends it at 6:03:30 (please see picture in his article at the beginning of this page).

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... trait2.htm

The theory of salvo 17 and 18 doesn't match with the film as it would move Bismarck turn from 6:03 to 6:01:50 (landing time of salvo 17 as per PoW gunnery plot) - 17 seconds in the film before salvo lands close to BS with BS already on stable course 270° with her turrets trained aft..
Therefore this early timing would mean Bismarck turned away at 6:01:00 (start of turn), well before PoW did. We know it is not the case.....

No way to move the film sequence to any other PoW salvo, IMHO, even imagining other falls of shell......

Bye, Alberto

[Herr Nilsson]

Alberto,

the German timing does not correlate with the British timing. Furthermore from the British point of view Bismarck started to alter away after salvo 14 according to the report or not later than salvo 16 according to the salvo plot.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Marc, that's why we need an alternative complete battle map to be able to discuss, confronting the whole picture and not a single salvo.
In the absence of an alternative, credible battle map (else than Antonio's 2005 one), I keep it as the best reference up to now, and based on it, the salvos landing in the film are 20 and 21.

Bye, Alberto

[wadinga]

Hello Alberto,

I'm afraid not. On his map from 2005, Bismarck starts her turn (50°) at 6:03 and ends the turn at 6:03:30.

A 53,000 ton battleship turns 50 degrees in 30 seconds- you really do believe every literal word of the Gospel according to St Antonio. don't you? He/she/it should have been able to out-turn those pesky Swordfish at that rate.

[/that the enemy started altering away gradually at about salvo 14

which is 06:00:10 according to the PoW GAR.

All the best

wadinga

[alecsandros]

@Wadinga
Yes, 50* in 30 seconds is conceivable for a battleship like Bismarck.
We know from Prinz Eugen's log that they ordered a full rudder turn, so no half-measures there.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Wadinga wrote: "A 53,000 ton battleship turns 50 degrees in 30 seconds-"

Hi Sean,
yes absolutely, as Alec stated above.

BTW we have already discussed this topic for the PoW 160° turn that happened in 2 minutes under full rudder..... (someone was disputing she was able to turn so quickly.......) and already concluded it was possible based on her available data.

I don't have the data for Bismarck, but Littorio class battleships showed a 360° turn happening at full speed in 3 minutes 50 secs.....

St.Antonio can be wrong sometimes (very often, I must say) but in the absence of everything better, he is still the reference.

Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

from St. Antonio, ... the " metronomic time provider " ...

@ Alberto,

thanks for your clarification.

@ Alecsandros,

I agree with you, ... evidently Wadinga never read about Tirpitz avoiding Albacore torpedoes on March 1942, ... and like above on the 8 inch and the 20/21st PoW shell salvo evaluations, ... he exposed himself to another incorrect statement.

@ Wadinga,

it is time for you to show us your : time matrix, battle map, film and photo timing correlation and supporting evidence on both sides in order to sustain your statements.

@ Herr Nilsson,

I demonstrated the timing being in line both sides with a 10 to15 seconds misalignment at the most, with 2 milestones at 06:00:50 and 06:03:45 as you well know.

If you like to sustain that there were 2 minutes misalignment between the 2 battle side, please show it to us by simply providing your : time matrix, battle map, film and photo timing correlation and supporting evidence on both sides in order to sustain your statements.

My material for your evaluations is out there since 2005, ... with my latest update here above.

It is your turn now to show us what you base your statements on ... in fairness ... since you keep on disagree ...

Many thanks in advance to everybody ... on continuing this very interesting discussion ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hi Alberto and Alecsandros,

From the last time we discussed ridiculously tight turns the Gospel according to the Arch-Seraphim Jurens which clearly trumps a mere Saint. Last time Williamus the Mighty was roasting the Great Satan of these threads, Victor of Vectis who claimed to have driven an aircraft carrier, but even he had admit he was wrong, wrong, wrong.

This is an interesting statement. The training rate of the main turrets of the KGV class is well documented at 2 degrees per second, but although I have no specific figures for this particular class immediately at hand -- I'm pretty sure I have them somewhere, though -- experiments with similar ships would suggest to me that a turning rate in excess of 2 degrees per second at high speed even under hard helm would be unusually high. Vanguard, for example, at 15 knots, would take about 4.25 minutes to turn through 180 degrees, i.e. about 0.7 degrees per second, whilst Eagle, under similar conditions with TWIN rudders could still only manage 0.75 degrees per second. Admittedly, turning rates at 30 knots are typically in the vicinity of 1.5 - 1.75 times higher than those at 15 knots, but this still only gives something in the vicinity of 1.3 degrees per second for a 30 knots full helm turn.

So 50 degrees in 30 seconds no way.

Recant ye Sinners and turn back to the path of righteousness. Brother Alecsandros, I thought you were beginning to see the Light?

I certainly don't go round exposing myself

he exposed himself to another incorrect statement

If Jasper sees tall white columns from 8" HE, I see tall white columns. He doesn't have an agenda, he just says what he sees.

All the best

wadinga

[Alberto Virtuani]

Wadinga wrote: " I see tall white columns."

Hi Sean,
I see columns much more than 35 meters high, so 15" shells. Have you read Steve Crandell data (I don't mention my ones because I have an agenda...... ) ? 8" splashes are 18 meters high.

you wrote: "So 50 degrees in 30 seconds no way"

I have posted the OFFICIAL DATA for Littorio class, full speed and full rudder and if you look behind in some thread we had the KGV data as well, that demonstrate PoW could turn 160° in 2 minutes.
If you have official data for Bismarck class at FULL SPEED and FULL RUDDER, please post them. The negative statement is not enough.

But even it took to Bismarck 38,5 seconds (1.3 degrees per second), as per Mr.Jurens formula, NOTHING will change. Simply the turn to 270° course would have happened (in your fantasy in which PG film shows a single shell from salvo 17 and 18) at 6:00:50....
What are you trying to demonstrate with this useless discussion ? 8 seconds more will not change Antonio's timeline, still waiting for yours !

Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

As I agree with Alberto,

I must say I realy enjoy the way brother Wadinga writes

Best regards my friends,

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you wrote :

I certainly don't go round exposing myself

Really ?

Please read what you wrote few days ago :

Post by wadinga » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:39 am

Hello Antonio,

It is disappointing that you are so certain of your hypothesis that you seemingly take any questioning as a personal affront. IMHO there are very few "proven facts" in it at all, just a set of postulations which some apparently find more convincing than others We are just talking about the German courses here, as the Conspiracy theory stuff is beyond rational argument anymore.

Since you have apparently accounted for all the later local control salvoes, have you an insight into why are they so unbelievably accurate compared with that seen in NH 69731 which you believe is PoW salvo 19 falling many hundreds of yards short? Somehow without the benefit of either DCT's elevated sighting position, Aylwin through his Y turret periscope, correctly spots and divines the predicted range and puts his next shot salvo 20, 30 seconds later by your reckoning, within a few tens of metres of PG's starboard quarter, and the next just 20 seconds after that, without even the benefit of spotting the previous fall of shot, a little further adrift off PG's starboard beam. All of which is achieved whilst PoW is twisting and turning like a snipe (a 35,000 snipe that is). BTW since all these salvoes are closer to PG than Bismarck, which ship is he shooting at?

It is interesting that the maps of Paul Schmalenbach in Warship Profile , The Baron in his book and Ulrich Elfrath reproduced in Santarini all ignore the Gefechtschizze for PG's track and depict a double scissor course with PG cutting across from Bismarck's starboard bow to the port bow about 05:55 and then chopping back across the flagship's bows just before 06:00. Elfrath in particular shows a right angle crossing exactly as recorded in the Bundesarchive photo and NH 69729. Schmalenbach actually shows PG stern-on to PoW at 06:00.

According to these gentlemen (well not Elfrath) who were actually at the Battle of the Denmark Strait, (unlike any of us) the positional relationship between BS and PG which most closely fits the film and most of the NH series is between 05:56 and maybe 05:58 only, because PG was always to starboard of the flagship otherwise. BTW since this is moments before Hood's destruction it is no wonder it shows rapid fire. Oh and the shells landing so close to PG's starboard side would be.................... from Hood.

I'm sorry once again to refer to diagrams I cannot reproduce. Elfrath from Santarini should be possible from some other contributors, Schmalenbach from Warship Profile a little harder.

For Alberto: I don't insinuate Antonio's precise salvo timing for BS is unsupportable, I flat out declare it
Drawing a track for Bismarck based on his ordering of the photographs is a theory, no more.
He does not replicate the position shown in the Bundesarchive photo and NH 69729 of 90 degree intersection.

All the best

wadinga

I have been so high minded not to reply to it immediately, ... but now, ... enough is enough.

I again invite you to provide us your : time matrix, battle map, film and photo timing correlation and supporting evidence on both sides in order to sustain your statements.

So I will be able not only to respond to the series of incorrect statements I can read here above, ... some of which are just incredible to be read to say the least, ... but hopefully to the whole of them in a single shot.

Waiting for your hypothesis to materialize ...

Bye Antonio

[wadinga]

Hello Antonio,

As I have explained before I am quite happy to believe the Baron and Schmalenbach. I endorse their maps since they were there. I believe with sufficient time one could insert the photographs and film to match them. I don't believe you could position the maps or events accurate to plus or minus 10 seconds, or build a Conspiracy theory on the back of it.

Hello Alberto,

So you believe

Bismarck class at FULL SPEED and FULL RUDDER

Turns the first 50 degrees in 30 secs?

When Antonio says salvo 16 of 4 shells is fired at 06:03:00, then instant max rudder for 30 secs (how long does that take to get to max rudder?) then another salvo 17 at 06:03:28 Then instant straight rudder (takes as long as before I suppose). Then instantly commence rapid fire mode as we have a nicely worked out F/C solution having just executed a

FULL SPEED and FULL RUDDER

turn so as to give the gyrocompass and computer a really good chance to guesstimate into the future.

We're not all singing from the same hymn sheet are we?

Steve was a submariner, what does he know about the 8" shell splashes at the Denmark Strait?

Besides it depends how deep below the surface the base fused HE explodes.

Someone who has seen such splashes is Commander Luce, quoted in Alarm Starboard by Geoffrey Brooke "Our heaviest shells sent water up nearly three times her height," so it is perfectly feasible that the tall white columns, merely the same height as PoW, which we see on the film, are the same ones Jasper identified as his 8" HE.

Al the best

wadinga