Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:54 am

alecsandros wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote:Does a salvo with the same setting values 5 seconds later make sense?
It depends. If one fires the initial salvo on purpose 400m short, and wants to straddle, he could fire the second salvo at a slight interval with the same settings, and possibly be correct, by straddling the target between the 2 semi-salvos.
But the you have two salvos.
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Marc

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:59 am

Herr Nilsson wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
Herr Nilsson wrote:Does a salvo with the same setting values 5 seconds later make sense?
It depends. If one fires the initial salvo on purpose 400m short, and wants to straddle, he could fire the second salvo at a slight interval with the same settings, and possibly be correct, by straddling the target between the 2 semi-salvos.
But the you have two salvos.
Could 1 Vollsalve be fired in 2 distinct semi-salvos, but still be named 1 "salvo" ?

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:05 pm

I don't think so.
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Marc

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:20 pm

Then the situation is further complicated.

I don't know how to time Jaspers mention of "enemy turns hard towards us at salvo 8". In the KTB, he writes this about the time Hood is seen sinking, around 6:01.

Counting the salvos (if I'm doing it right) gives 5 salvos versus Hood (2 Volsalve, 3 semisalvos from 1 Gabelgruppe), and 4 versus Prince of Wales (1 Vollsalve, 3 semisalvos of 1 Gabelgruppen) by 5:59:30 or so. So salvo 8 would have been fired at about 5:59:10

Again, the times are apart... :think:

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:31 pm

Jasper says about 8th salvo of the second shooting. You only have to count the salvoes at PoW.
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:50 pm

Do you think it is the same case for his "at 28th salvo" reference, mentioning fw turret not bearing on target ? I.e., 28th salvo to PoW or overall firing ?

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:57 pm

Hi Alec,
waiting for Marc, I have already assumed this way in my count:
Alberto Virtuani wrote:
"5 "ranging" salvos to Hood (2 Vollsalve + 3 semisalvos in Gabellgruppe) = 28 shots (fired at battle time 5:55:xx - 5:57:xx)
4 ranging salvos to PoW (1 Voillsalve + Gabellgruppe) = 20 shots (5:58::xx - 5:59:xx)
24 rapid salvos to PoW (semi-salvos) up to salvo 28 (to PoW) = 96 shots (5:59:xx - 6:04:40 assuming salvo 5 is A+B and 28 is C+D)
The remaining 40 shots to get to 184 (ordered) are the ones fired by Albrecht in aft control with C and D from 6:05:xx till 6:09:xx ...."
Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:57 pm

Yes, I think it's the 28th salvo against PoW.
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:51 pm

Ok, thank you.

Do you have a time estimate for the interval of seconds between salvo 8 and salvo 28 ?

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:26 am

Hi Alec,
my 2 cents opinion here is founded on Antonio Bonomi reconstruction timetable related to the whole battle and it is based on some assumptions of mine as well....

Hood exploded at 6:00 or 6:00:10, PoW turned towards PG at 6:00:20, 6:00:30. Therefore, as jasper mention salvo 8 I assume the turn happened just after firing salvo 8, that is therefore fired at 6:0010 or 6:00:20.

I also assume salvo 8 was fired after the Gabellgruppe by A+B turrets, with PG firing always semi-salvos alternating fore and aft turrets.
Salvo 28 was fired therefore by C+D turrets, thus salvo 27 (A+B) could have been fired just before the end of the turn (started at 6:04), at around 6:04:30, with salvo 28 still fired under jasper control before the switch to Albrecht.

In summary, you have 4 minutes and 10 to 20 seconds to fire 19 salvos (from 9 to 28 included), with a RoF very close to the one declared by Jasper.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:38 am

... We have discussed a plausible timetable for initial Prinz Eugen salvos was up until 5:59:30, time of "straddle" and "rapid fire" opened against Prince of Wales.

It is not enough time until 6:00:20 to fire 4 or 5 salvos against Prince of Wales (to get to "salvo 8 against PoW"), unless they were all semi-salvos.
Could it be ? :think:

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:52 am

Hi Alec,
if PG opened fire at 5:55:20, she had all time to fire 2 Vollsalve (spotting the fall of shots) + a Gabellgruppe of 3 semi-salvos by 5:57:15 (fall of shots at around 5:57:45).
Therefore PG could have switched fire to PoW at 5:58:15 and fired the "ranging" salvos by 5:59:20, spotting fall of shots at 5:59:45 and starting rapid fire (at salvo 5) at 5:59:35. Then just other 3 semi-salvos. I assumed PG always fired semi-salvos, never broadsides.

This timetable matches both Antonio's battlemap and Jasper account. The only thing that does not match is the "switch fire" time to PoW, that the PG battlemap puts at 5:59..... :think: However 5:57 looks quite credible as Lutjens could not allow PoW to hit Bismarck undisturbed after 5:56:30, when salvo 6 from PoW hit for the first time his flagship. In any case 5:57 matches with Jasper count of salvos, 5:59 does not.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:03 am

Ah, thanks for the clarifications Alberto,
So it appears that counting semi-salvos is a good lead...

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:31 am

Hello everybody,

Alberto Virtuani,

you wrote :
" 5 "ranging" salvos to Hood ( 2 Vollsalve + 3 semi-salvos in Gabellgruppe) = ( 8+8+12 ) = 28 shots (fired at battle time 5:55:xx - 5:57:xx)
4 ranging salvos to PoW (1 Vollsalve + 3 semi-salvos in Gabellgruppe) = ( 8+12 ) = 20 shots (5:58::xx - 5:59:xx)
24 rapid salvos to PoW (semi-salvos) up to salvo 28 (to PoW) = ( 24x4) = 96 shots (5:59:xx - 6:04:40 assuming salvo 5 is A+B and 28 is C+D)
The remaining 40 shots ( 10x4 ) to get to 184 (ordered) are the ones fired by Albrecht in aft control with C and D from 6:05:xx till 6:09:xx ...."
Very good job Alberto, ... improving my 2005 published work about PG firing at DS, ... BRAVO ! ... :clap:

Now it is more clear the different counting methodology between salvo and semi-salvo definitions, ... 8 shells or 4 shells departing from the warships ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Cag » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:17 pm

Hi All

Hi Antonio may I ask a wee question?

I'm sorry if you made this clear but I've missed it, it's another long thread! In your Bismarck salvo chart is the range you've given in yards or meters?

Also is 20 seconds a fair reload time for Bismarck or a little longer 22?

Thanks in advance

Best wishes
Cag.

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