Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:34 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:47 am
Herr Nilsson wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:37 pm
A full salvo short at first. Then the bracket. A short bracket salvo at first would possibly obscure the following bracket salvo near the target.
With this firing methodology executed, how much time do you think it would normally pass between "I will not let my ship blown from under my own ass" and the impact of the 4 (or less if misfires happen) shells of the 3rd semisalvo from the Gabellgruppe, errupting water geysers around Hood ?
:think: This depends on the time Bismarck opened fire.
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Marc

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:44 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:34 pm
:think: This depends on the time Bismarck opened fire.
How long do you think it would normally take between Lindemann's resolve (transmitted via voicepipes), and the actual order to produce effects ? (i.e. first shell leaving the first barrel)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:09 pm

The delay between the order and the first shot should be just very few seconds. However, the whole anecdote is very implausible, if one knows what communication occurs in the two or three minutes before such an order.
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Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 pm

Hello everybody,

apparently, from what I read above, there are now two hooligans/deniers (both unable to calculate the average # of shells PoW was able to deliver during the battle per minute or unwilling to admit it was higher than Bismarck one....and cowardly running away without giving an answer) that support the theory that Bismarck opened fire at 5:53, together with BC1. :negative:

A third one, too timid to openly expose himself with such an enormity, is however feeding their trolling theories, trying to excite their "dying" fantasy.... :kaput:


I would like to see one day their battle reconstruction, putting together all these speculations, with BS open fire at 5:53 (contradicting all German official documents and the Baron account) :shock: , BS on course 270° from 5:55 till 6:00 (contradicting McMullen salvo plot, showing the range decreasing CONSTANTLY in the same time interval) :shock: , Hood exploding at 5:58 (contradicting the vast majority of recorded timings) :think: , PG battlemap denied for another imaginative track (as per 1990 battlemap) :shock:, Bismarck ceasing fire and re-opening it several times during the battle (contradicting all logic and witnesses) :shock: etc. etc. :lol:
Good Luck for their vain attempt, for the time being Antonio's reconstruction and battlemap (+ his "metronomic" salvo chart) is still the best one available, having put all evidences, reports, official documents, photos and film frames in relation with a precise timing and not being as ridiculous as the above.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:50 pm

True to Form.
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Marc

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:07 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 pm
that support the theory that Bismarck opened fire at 5:53, together with BC1.
It's an irrelevant theory, as Prinz Eugen's KTB clearly states 5:53 as open fire time of British ships and 5:55 as open fire for German ships (both). This naturally correlates with Luetjens's "running battle 20800 to 18000meters. Enemy Hood [...] After 5 minutes, Hood is destroyed by an explosion".

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:10 pm

My thoughts are that the actual mechanics of Bismarck's batteries that day are not fully understood. For instance, was she still using her main radar set (damaged in action with Norfolk) ? Or was she ranging with the 2 other radars , or with her rangefinders ? Was she still having problems with her RPC system for elevation (producing incorrect elevations per range), or was that fixed ? Was she still having problems with her shell hoists, or was that fixed as well ? Etc.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:51 pm

Hi Alec,
of course it is an irrelevant theory , as all the other speculations.... Also, I agree, we don't know many things about Bismarck firing that day.
In addition to the ones you mention, also the PoW GAR accounts for A+B and C+D (X+Y) fired close one to the other, but still the PG film shows a full salvo (or possibly the two groups fired extremely close one to the other, but not sure...) and then 4 salvos surely fired by fore or aft group only (A+B, C+D, C+D, A+B...), as well as the PoW witnesses all counted 4 shells salvos (including Leach, describing the fatal one on Hood) and it's difficult to believe that all were misled by some splashes covering some others due to the above firing methodology.... :think:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:35 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:07 pm
Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:09 pm
that support the theory that Bismarck opened fire at 5:53, together with BC1.
It's an irrelevant theory, as Prinz Eugen's KTB clearly states 5:53 as open fire time of British ships and 5:55 as open fire for German ships (both). This naturally correlates with Luetjens's "running battle 20800 to 18000meters. Enemy Hood [...] After 5 minutes, Hood is destroyed by an explosion".
Lutjens sent a radio signal at 0552 that he was engaging heavy units.

The PE war diary entry would also be correct as long as Bismarck is also firing at 0555. Brinkmann stated that Bismarck fired before PE. However, we know with some accuracy when Hood opened fire and it was ~0552:30 and ~0553:05 for PoW. So clearly PE's timing doesn't accurately line up with PoW's. If Bismarck opened fire at ~0553:30 and PE at ~0554 this might be recorded as 0555 by PE's log, especially since PE recorded Hood's loss as 0601:20.

All three surviving RN ships independently reported that Bismarck had opened fire by ~0553:30 relative to Hood. Neither Jasper nor Schmalenbach could see Bismarck, indeed, they were largely unaware of Hood's salvos landing nearby.

The only really accurate timing we have of the action is via PoW's salvo chart which was recorded via her AFCT printer. There is some evidence, via her war diary that PE's similar recorder partially failed.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:36 pm

Hello Alecsandros,


Jasper says of his first broadside:

"The observable impacts could not be ascribed with certainty to our own shots...……..."


Our own shots as apposed to who else's?

Who else was shooting at Hood at the time PG's first broadside arrived?

The sentence is muddled up with observations on the perforation roll, but that does not make it difficult to identify the observable impacts. Poor perforations might make it difficult to tell whether they are short/over/ straddling. Lack of a "fall of shot warning" might happen, so when PG spotters see splashes they are not sure whose they are. Who else can it be? Not criticizing the translation work of excellent Ulrich can our German speakers untangle the German sentence structure. Or have we been here before, I've lost track?

We have been told more than once that a notation made for 05:55 effectively says both ships shoot at the enemy. That does not definitely say anybody started or commenced shooting at 05:55. It just says that at 05:55 they are both shooting.

Antonio's favourite painter specifically describes watching two Bismarck salvoes fired before PG's guns fire for the first time. He like all the other witnesses is wrong because A & A say he is, on the basis of the "discredited" Lagemann's captions. He is supposed to be wrong about Hood's shells but right about Bismarck's first salvo photo.


All of which makes Alberto's calculated irrelevant average...………..more irrelevant.


All the best

wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:11 am

wadinga wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:36 pm

Antonio's favourite painter specifically describes watching two Bismarck salvoes fired before PG's guns fire for the first time. He like all the other witnesses is wrong because A & A say he is, on the basis of the "discredited" Lagemann's captions. He is supposed to be wrong about Hood's shells but right about Bismarck's first salvo photo.
German 380mm gun ballistics and 203mm ballistics are different; at 20000meters time of flight of 380mm shell is 32 seconds, versus 203mm shell approx 36seconds. Bismarck was somewhat more close to Hood compared to Prinz Eugen; that further decreases the trajectory length, and thus time of fligt. Thus, even with Prinz Eugen firing first (by a few seconds), the shells would be overtaken in flight by Bismarck's shells, as the battleship's shells would be losing velocity slower.
Last edited by alecsandros on Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:18 am

dunmunro wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:35 pm
The only really accurate timing we have of the action is via PoW's salvo chart which was recorded via her AFCT printer. There is some evidence, via her war diary that PE's similar recorder partially failed.
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 972#p55432

Jasper clearly states in the Prinz Eugen diary that "I received permission to fire at 4:55 (5:55) from the bridge, and immediately commenced firing a full salvo[...]"

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:05 am

Hello everybody,

again the two hooligans/deniers insist in their speculation: present yout battle reconstruction with a credible timeline putting together ALL their fantasies: BS open fire at 5:53, BS on course 270° from 5:55 to 6:00, Hood explosion at 5:58, PG battlemap ignored, Bismarck interrupting her fire during the battle, film taken while Hood was still afloat, etc.etc.

They will be unable to do so FOREVER, while Antonio's reconstruction is possibly not perfect (yet) but is matching all evidences and putting together all facts and episodes. Thus they will be just deniers.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:11 am

Hello everybody,

on a recent published France author book …

Book_Cover.JPG
Book_Cover.JPG (42.68 KiB) Viewed 525 times


the Denmark Strait battle map the book author used …

DS_map.JPG
DS_map.JPG (29.95 KiB) Viewed 525 times


... I think I know the above map, ... :think:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:47 am

Hello Alecsandros,

Most ingenious but you are assuming they fire at precisely the same moment so Bismarck's shells overtake PG's in the air. Our resident expert(?) on statistics can tell you how unlikely this is.

Jasper was told by his bridge, who was told by the signalman who took in the signal, that was hoisted by the signalman who was told to hoist the signal, who was told by the officer, who was told by Lindemann who was told by Lutjens.

Jasper says of his first broadside:

"The observable impacts could not be ascribed with certainty to our own shots...……..."



A & A are hiding, by the latter's own blurted admission, a letter sent outside normal military protocol by Jasper direct to Raeder. Jasper's account in the KTB seethes with his discontent about lack of firing instructions and then there is subsequent criticism by both Brinkmann and more senior officers of his choice of ammunition. Not to mention being pulled off his acquired and straddled target and moved to the unengaged ship as should have been designated before open fire. Is there anything in this hidden document complaining about lack of instructions on target or timed concentration fire on a single target with the flagship? We deserve to be told now not be held to ransom until Antonio's book comes out. :cool: If any publisher is unwise enough to publish it.

Toussaint's map, even in this reproduction shows ,the hard turn towards the enemy by PoW and therefore the impossibility of receiving the Compass Platform hit (angle of entry and exit) as early as has been alleged. Pouf! Vraiment! There goes the panicky Leach theory. :D

All the best

wadinga
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