Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:21 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

come on, ... do not tell and reveal too much to this incompetent guy, ... leave him alone on his fantasies and dreams about a map and some photo incorrect captions, ... do not tell him that not even a 1971 one reprinted, ... it was back on 1943 the original version of that map, ... :shock:

Do not tell the guy that the 150 mm secondary of the Bismarck opened fire only against the PoW and obviously at the shortest distance between the two warships of course, ... :wink:

Poor guy thinking that Bismarck turned to starboard at 05:55, ... I like him to stay with Winklareth and Vic Dale, ... so the team is enlarged, ... and we can have some fun about it.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:49 pm

Hello Antonio,
come on, ... do not tell and reveal too much to this incompetent guy, ... leave him alone on his fantasies and dreams about a map and some photo incorrect captions,
Talking about the proper captioning on the back of a photo showing a print carefully described by the Propaganda Kompanie ( Kriegsberichter ) Joseph Lagemann, ... one can notice into that folder, ... with the original photos, ... carefully preserved, ... the PK ( Kriegsmahler ) Julius Caesar Schmitz-Westerholt photo of the very famous print he made for Adm Raeder to be given as a gift to Adm Lutjens widow.

Are you the same Antonio who posted?:

But please do not explain them that the PK ( Kriegsmahler ) Julius Caesar Schmitz-Westerholt was there too, looking at everything exactly like the Propaganda Kompanie ( Kriegsberichter ) Joseph Lagemann was doing, ... only taking notes and making sketches instead of taking photos, ... but do not tell them to use their brain to try to understand, ... because they simply do not want to do it, ... even if being very limited, that will just provide a small help anyway,

So sometimes Joseph Lagemann's captions are right and sometimes they are wrong, depending on whether they suit your invented scenario, and sometimes Julius Caesar Schmitz-Westerholt's detailed notes and sketches are right and sometimes wrong for the same reason.


When Joseph Lagemann says Hood's salvoes are landing near Prinz Eugen and the same splashes are seen in the film he is wrong, because you say he is. When Julius Caesar Schmitz-Westerholt says Prinz Eugen only fired her first salvo after Bismarck had fired two, he is wrong because you say he is.
do not tell and reveal too much to this incompetent guy
You mean the secret information you are withholding like the so-called Silver Bullet and now some letter from a humble gunnery officer to the Head of the Kriegsmarine? :D

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:16 pm

Hello everybody,

I see Mr.Wadinga has smartly ignored the key point below (as I'm not much interested in the Baron's late years decision, when he changed the map in his book, without explaining why and based on what....).
"...the 1971/1990 map is proven totally wrong, because McMullen salvo plot shows us that the closure rate was extremely high, allowing him to hit Bismarck ONLY if she was on course around 220° (or even less than 220°...) from 5:55 till 6:00:30 at least (http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... encIVa.gif).
Had Bismarck been on course 270° already from 5:55 the distance would not have changed at all after 5:55. :lol: :lol: :lol:"
Therefore the discussion about the 1971/1990 map (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 195#p68342) should be closed once forever.....


I have always admitted that my friend Adm.Santarini has never deeply investigated the distances and the ships tracks. We have discussed with him the correct battlemap only after the publication of his book and he was very interested and surprised as well about the many errors of the "official British version"... :lol:
When we will publish our book, we will work with him and ask his "peer-review" for several aspects, including of course the gunnery ones .... :wink:


Again my direct question for everybody: which is the battlemap that, up to now, puts in context all evidences in the best possible way ?



Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:23 pm

Certainly not Antonio's.
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:26 pm

The question was: "which is the battlemap that, up to now, puts in context all evidences in the best possible way ? "

The non-answer of a timid forum member, not willing to expose himself but feeding the deniers, is "Certainly not Antonio's" :lol: :lol: :lol:

No comment is needed...... :kaput:
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:40 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

you wrote :
Certainly not Antonio's.
Once again your usual way to raise only doubts, ... with no details, ... and mostly no explanations on why it is not correct, ... and the proposed alternative way to read the events from your side.

If you like to counter something entering a debate, ... in fairness you must provide the reasons why you do it, ... and also your version of the facts with your opinion about it.

You have already several post to be answered where you already acted unfairly in this way, ... and I think it is enough now.

We wait the several asked answers from you now. Thanks

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Bill Jurens » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:57 pm

The question " which is the battlemap that, up to now, puts in context all evidences in the best possible way ?" really leads us -- probably inadvertently --into a discussion of historical methodology. The question is, in a strict historical sense, somewhat meaningless insofar as there are several variants, some differing in significant detail, and a variety of anecdotal additional snippets, many of which are really, or apparently, contradictory as well. At this remove it is impossible to determine with any reliability which of the comments and variant maps are in any way more accurate than another. So 'best' probably lies mostly within the eyes of the beholder.

The philosopher and historian Albert Schweitzer noted similar difficulties in historical religious studies (although I want to emphasize that this example is in no way intended to begin some sort of religious discourse, only to draw a convenient parallel). Schweitzer carefully dissected various descriptions of Jesus' life, retaining only those where there was some corroboration or physical evidence to support the written text(s). Testis unis... This came down to a very short list -- perhaps twenty items -- that could be in some way be considered to be reasonably reliable or definitive.

He then noted that there were, in various and sundry libraries, a dozen or more elaborate multi-volume histories of Jesus' life, and asked "How could this be?" -- i.e. how could so little information be expanded to such a lengthy discussions, concluding that the histories themselves, though purporting to be factual and insightful, in fact represented little more than a series of elaborate reconstructions which reflected more upon the insights and experiences of the authors than it did to anything which might have happened in and around Israel nineteen centuries earlier.

So asking which is the best map of Denmark Strait is a bit like asking what is the best multi-volume 'Life of Jesus", or which is the most accurate visual depiction of Attlila the Hun. It mostly reflects which version the beholder feels is in some way the most satisfying, but this can't be said that it is for any particular reason any more accurate than any of the others.

There is a lot about the Denmark Strait action which is -- and considering the technology of the time, probably never was -- recoverable with any degree of certainty. This is, actually, the normal situation with World War II naval actions; there are very few where the track charts of the opponents agree with one another in great detail when brought together after the fact, i.e. after the war is over. One can draw a general picture with some certainty, but the farther one attempts to delve into detail, the larger are the effect of imagination and implicit or explicit bias in the reconstruction. Until, after a while, one is arguing about details which are, in a historical context, pretty much actually meaningless.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by HMSVF » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:36 pm

:clap:

Great post.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:49 pm

Bill Jurens wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:57 pm
The philosopher and historian Albert Schweitzer noted similar difficulties in historical religious studies (although I want to emphasize that this example is in no way intended to begin some sort of religious discourse, only to draw a convenient parallel). Schweitzer carefully dissected various descriptions of Jesus' life, retaining only those where there was some corroboration or physical evidence to support the written text(s). Testis unis... This came down to a very short list -- perhaps twenty items -- that could be in some way be considered to be reasonably reliable or definitive.
THe list can be further purged because no definitive "proof" (material evidence) of the existence can be positively traced back to the historical Jesus (assuming He "existed" in the human mode at all). It is in any case irrelevant if there were 0 ,12 or 1000 items found to "prove" the historicity. What is relevant is the moral aspect of His life, and the way in which we are closer or further away from that moral.

---

Antonio has a completely diffrent hystorical timeframe - 1941 - and the validity of the material existence of the Battle of Denmark Strait is difficult to be denied (allthough some contemporary physicists may have some arguments AGAINST it's existence).

The moral aspect is little to no importance to us , other then in the general way that wars and battles can shape a moral character.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:13 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Bill Jurens,

here in we are not talking about religion ( Jesus ) or barbarians ( Attila).

Here in we are talking about the historical re-construction of the Bismarck track during the Denmark Strait battle.

1) If someone is not OK with the PoW by Rowell track, the own PoW battle map track, and PoW Gunnery showed track on the plot, ... and the same goes for the HMS Hood run track of course, ... please tell us why ?

2) If someone is not OK with the available Prinz Eugen official battle map own track, .. ( not the British ships of course as we have VizeAdm Schmundt opinion about it already available ... :wink: ), ... please just tell us why ?

3) If someone is not OK with the photo and film correlation done on a map ( only on one map as we can read on that map caption ) by the German battle witnesses realizing the main track run by the Bismarck in relation to the Prinz Eugen track having become available ( as we can read on the map caption too here below ), ... and here it is for you to read :

DS_battle_map_1978_ header_translation_01.jpg
DS_battle_map_1978_ header_translation_01.jpg (84.48 KiB) Viewed 634 times

... again please tell us why ?


4) If someone has a better track to be used than the one available on Princhin " Plot " for Norfolk and Suffolk, ... please show them to us here in, ... because taking those available tracks, ... and positioning them with correct bearings in relation to the other warships, ... we can correctly place them on this battlefield re-constructed fairly easily for all the 6 warships present that morning.

Last but not least, ... if someone is able to do a better job compared to the one I did, ... be my guest and do it yourself, ... and than show it to me here in, ... so we can compare it, ... and I have no problems about it, ... just do it ! ... :wink:


Keep on writing that is not 100% perfect, ... or cannot be done 100% perfectly because we miss this and that, ... will bring us nowhere.

This because this battle happened and we have to work with the evidence we have available, ... just like all the historians of this world usually do in those similar situations.

That is exactly what I did, ... and so far no one has done and showed anything better about it, ... as far as I know, ... in fact even the French guy on his recent book used my map, ... like many did before him, ... since has been published on 2005.

Hope is all clear, ... and I wait for your battle maps now, ... and for your correlations and explanations about it, ... just as I did.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:31 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:13 pm


Hope is all clear, ... and I wait for your battle maps now, ... and for your correlations and explanations about it, ... just as I did.

Bye Antonio
As explained to you by dozens of people and several tens or even hundreds of times in so much detail: Everybody with a minimum understanding of historical documents and maths/physics is completely aware that those correlations are completely meaningless, since they are based on data with extreme unceryainty ranges at best and on pure speculation at most times. Everybody with this minimum understanding does not waste his/her time with such nonsense. You can wait for a long time for another battle map based on these data produces by somebody with this minimum understanding. Why you just don't stop it here and publish your book?

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:46 pm

Hello everybody,

long before my next battle map version, ... many others will publish their Bismarck books and ... associated maps, ... and I am very curious to see what is going to be published and by whom, ... :think:

I am very curious to see if the 06:13 " novel " for the PoW retreat time will be repeated, ... the around 15 sea miles for Norfolk and Suffolk distance will be kept ... as Adm Tovey falsely declared on his dispatches, ... and Sir Kennedy sold for so many years.

Back on this thread subject, ... I am very curious to see what is going to be chosen for the Bismarck track between the British available tracks :

PoW_maps_Showing_BS_Track.jpg
PoW_maps_Showing_BS_Track.jpg (53.49 KiB) Viewed 615 times


... or the German carefully evaluated track for the Bismarck.


PG_Schmalenbach_Baron_maps_correlation.jpg
PG_Schmalenbach_Baron_maps_correlation.jpg (66.34 KiB) Viewed 615 times

Or if somebody will be so " naif " to use something else, ... lets see what will come out now, ... :wink:


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:20 pm

It is sometimes possible to set up logic tests for various assumptions to see if the assumption passes/fails the test.

For example, A/A's contention that Norfolk and Suffolk at 0600 were much closer to Hood, Bismarck and PE than stated by W-W and plotted by Pinchin. The test for this assumption was to measure the distance from Norfolk and Suffolk to each other to see if they were visible to one another, and so test which plot (A/A or Pinchin) was possible. A/A's plot's was not possible because it placed Norfolk and Suffolk too close to one another. This doesn't prove Pinchin correct, but only that A/A is wrong.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:26 pm

Hello Alberto,
(as I'm not much interested in the Baron's late years decision, when he changed the map in his book, without explaining why and based on what....).
Why ever not? :D

At least you accept he did change his/Schmalenbach's map significantly in 1990 , for reasons you are not interested in, whereas your co-author keeps dragging up ancient, irrelevant previous versions.

Sticking with this thread:
If someone is not OK with the available Prinz Eugen official battle map own track
No, I am not OK with it, because Admiral Schmundt was not OK with it. Why is Bismarck not represented? Why is there no official German map with Bismarck on it? How does Schmundt know the British tracks are useless and worthless? Is there a missing PG GAR which shows that the distances and bearings depicted on the Gefectskizze are incorrect? Why is PG depicted as making her most extreme torpedo avoidance manoeuvre at 06:14 long after the cease fire and long after and far away from any possible threat from the British ships. Why does this maneouvre look like the one actually performed during the battle and photographed during the battle? Dishonest, deliberate misrepresentation has been alleged for British charts on the flimsiest evidence. The same might very well be true for the Gefechtskizze.
If someone is not OK with the photo and film correlation done on a map ( only on one map as we can read on that map caption ) by the German battle witnesses realizing the main track run by the Bismarck in relation to the Prinz Eugen track having become available ( as we can read on the map caption too here below ), ... and here it is for you to read :
Obsolete so not OK, replaced by a revised map, approved by the two creators of the earlier map who were actually there.

I have always admitted that my friend Adm.Santarini has never deeply investigated the distances and the ships tracks.
Considering his book is concerned with the probability of projectiles hitting, and is based largely on geometry and time yours is a pretty damning criticism of your friend, especially since he also adopts Antonio's disproven (see film) metronomic salvo timetable. The only thing that could make things worse is to adopt your map.

which is the battlemap that, up to now, puts in context all evidences in the best possible way ?

Easy, Mullenheim-Rechberg/Schmalenbach 1990. It has not been created/distorted for Conspiracy Theory purposes.


I am currently attempting despite my lack of mathematical ability :cool: to analyse PoW's salvo plot in greater detail. It's shortcomings are becoming obvious. Firstly the AFCT never produced this map-like plot, it has been drawn subsequently using fire control information on an questionable ship's track which is different to the other ship's track. The timings are accepted to be out in absolute terms but are relatively correct to each other. We have little or no information on the rate of change applied by the Rate Officer at different times. Certain ranges are drawn incorrectly.


None of this information exists for Bismarck, so no similar analysis can exist.

Al the best

wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:48 am

Hello eveybody,

not only the Baron or Schmalenbach were there that morning ... many others were there and some of them has been interviewed personally by me.

They saw where the Bismarck was and what she did, ... they knew why she did it, ... and shared their version of the facts with me.

Their recorded words and detailed description is preserved forever now.

But do not tell this to the above incompetent guy, ... let him play with the old 1943 map reprinted into a Baron book on 1990, ... and still believe that an incorrect photo caption can show to him Bismarck receiving a shell from Hood while on course 270° due west, ... after her turn to starboard, ... :shock:

Winklareth was more credible, ... what a poor guy, ... it is funny to see to what one can try to hang on to in order to try to remain afloat, ... while miserably sinking ...

NOTE : The cowards will remain cowards, the lies will remain lies, the Cover Up still there, ... no matter the map.
It was the Royal Navy Admiralty that wanted 2 Officers under a Board of Inquiry -> Court Martial.
It is demonstrated now, with all associated lies and Cover Up, and nothing will change it.
Just for the records, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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