Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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wadinga
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:42 pm

Hello Antonio,
and some of them has been interviewed personally by me.
Congratulations for doing so, I hope their memories of what happened way back in 1941 will be recorded verbatim for general access. You must be applauded for this. :clap: :clap: :clap:
. and shared their version of the facts with me.
None of your confidants was Georg Herzog who said in 1941:

I saw a piercing flame (a flash) astern of port as I came topside; I later found out was from the sinking "Hood".
Their recorded words and detailed description is preserved forever now.
You mean hidden away and subject to your filtering, adjustment and redaction to suit your defamation campaign. Hidden away like the so-called Silver Bullet and now some apparently-relevant Jasper-Raeder communication so you can prosecute your Conspiracy Theory for fame and money.

Your determination to publish this defamation, is clearly without regard to the paucity of your evidence:
NOTE : The cowards will remain cowards, the lies will remain lies, the Cover Up still there, ... no matter the map.
No matter whether the map is right, no matter whether the timetable is right, no matter that experienced naval history writers tell you there is insufficient information to draw the wildly extremist conclusions you have drawn, your intuitive opinion that there were cowards, conspiracy and cover-up must be promulgated worldwide. This is despite the fact that even in the small world of this Forum, no-one apart from faithful Alberto, and perhaps Alecsandros believes you and in most cases posters from around the world argue vehemently against you and your fabrication.


I hesitate to say, but always do,

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:39 pm

Hello everybody,

I not only have the so called " Silver Bullet ", ... a have several magazines of cartridges ready to be fired at a machine gun rate of fire, ... when it will be the proper moment to do it, ... I am not in a hurry about it.

The difference is into the historical researches and not to still use a limited set of information on the books, ... like Winklareth did pretending to reverse the Bismarck photos just using a limited set of this battle photos in order to be able to do it.

The Bismarck track and fire methodology, ... is into the photos and film, ... and with minimum adjustment changes it will be not so different from my 2005 map track already published, ... her firing sequence is already posted in this thread by me and Alberto.

Moving to the " regrettable aftermath " as Stephen Roskill called it, ... or the " Denmark Strait Saga " as Sir Henry Leach defined it, ... everything is still into the UK archives on official available documents, ... and now everybody interested about this shameful event can go and realize it.

I know many do not like it, ... but that is life, ... this is what really happened and the truth is disclosed now.

Still I am sure there will be book authors that will try to avoid to publish such a shame, ... and maybe even on a reduced format will like to apply a " sugar coating " to those events as Sir Kennedy did on Pursuit, ... but that is OK and I can live with it.

When we will publish our works, ... the full details and evidence will be available to everybody, ... this is for sure.

Just as I wrote :
The cowards will remain cowards, the lies will remain lies, the Cover Up still there, ... no matter the map.
It was the Royal Navy Admiralty that wanted 2 Officers under a Board of Inquiry -> Court Martial.
It is demonstrated now, with all associated lies and Cover Up, and nothing will change it.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "None of your confidants was Georg Herzog who said in 1941:"I saw a piercing flame (a flash) astern of port as I came topside; I later found out was from the sinking "Hood"."
I see Mr.Wadinga has not yet given up with 1971/1990 map and still desperately tries to find all the possible accounts that can support it. :lol:

Unfortunately for him, this map is already definitively proven wrong by McMullen Salvo Plot that shows Bismarck CLOSING the enemy at least until after salvo 14 landed over, that is at least until 6:00:30 - 6:00:40, AFTER Hood exploded.
Ad abundantiam, a precise evaluation of the PG battlemap, together with the film frames examination, shows that Bismarck was on course 270° (for at least 1.5 minutes) and the PG turn visible at its beginning demonstrates that this sequence starts at 6:03:30, confirming Leach declaration that Bismarck turned away "almost" at the same time PoW did it (6:02 - 6:03 as per his narrative).

Mr.Wadinga SHOULD now post his reconstruction, clearly telling to everybody here from which minute Bismarck was on course 270° in his confused opinion, if he is able to find a suitable interval at any time before Antonio's one (6:03:30 - 6:05:xx).... :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:36 pm

Hello Antonio,
I am not in a hurry about it

Good, then the reputations of decent men will remain unsullied in the public eye, as they do here, where, even after your exhaustive efforts for several years you have persuaded no-one. When the time does come, your secret ammunition will undoubtedly be rendered harmless as easily as your fanciful "evidences" have been here.


Bercuson & Herwig's book has been quite the worst book published about the Bismarck for some time and if and when you produce your own volume it should give them some serious competition. Can I suggest you keep the factual stuff about colour schemes, photos etc in the front and confine your jihadist ranting against the RN to the back, in an easy tear out section? Shredding it for use as cat litter will then be quick and convenient.


Hello Alberto,
and still desperately tries to find all the possible accounts that can support it.
nil desperandum: with Mullheim-Rechberg and Schmalenbach and Herzog all saying the same thing, I have all the support I need. Your slavish support for Antonio has clouded your reason:
Bismarck CLOSING the enemy
There is no suggestion Lutjens ever closed the enemy, at best he maintained course escaping from the cruisers until he was ready to run away properly, apparently from imaginary torpedoes. Virtually all the closing vector was due to Holland's chosen course. This reduced when he turned to port at 05:55. The rate of closure per minute from PoW's GAR is interesting and nowhere near as straightforward as you pretend.


By repetitio est mater studiorum you hope to exploit:
The illusory truth effect (also known as the validity effect, truth effect or the reiteration effect) is the tendency to believe information to be correct after repeated exposure.



All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

Byron Angel
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Byron Angel » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:32 pm

"The illusory truth effect (also known as the validity effect, truth effect or the reiteration effect) is the tendency to believe information to be correct after repeated exposure"

In other words, the Goebbels school of historiography.

B

northcape
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:35 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:39 pm
Hello everybody,

I not only have the so called " Silver Bullet ", ... a have several magazines of cartridges ready to be fired at a machine gun rate of fire, ... when it will be the proper moment to do it, ... I am not in a hurry about it.

Bye Antonio
I would be careful with such analogies. Given your general degree of competence in all things large and small, chances are high your magazine gets loose and you will shoot youself in your own foot again and again.

BTW, can you tell us why you always use three dots "..." after the comma? Are these supposed to be blank spaces so you can later fill in whatever you please to override previously stated nonsense?

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:14 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "The rate of closure per minute from PoW's GAR is interesting and nowhere near as straightforward as you pretend."
... and NEVER supporting Mr.Wadinga's theory of a Bismarck running a 270° course AT ANY TIME between 5:55 and 6:00:30 at least....

Therefore the 1971/1990 map proposed by this guy is simply wrong. Full Stop.

Now he MUST tell us all at what time in his speculation Bismarck turned to 270° and how long she was on that course !

Come on, answer now, don't be coward like another denier who came in to insult "Milano" (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... ano#p80663) and the "Milanese" (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... ese#p79977) and after having got rubbished once (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 570#p80007), turned away, not answering a clear and direct question (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... ano#p80665) because too ignorant to try... :lol:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

alecsandros
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:17 pm

Byron Angel wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:32 pm
In other words, the Goebbels school of historiography.
That went both ways: Allied propaganda prophetised doom of the 3rd Reich, while German propaganda prophetised the 1000 year Reich. It actually won the only propaganda with real resources behind it.

In this years-long debate, the only real explanations come from Antonio. The entire array of deniers is actually funny. All lined up and chatting nonsense. Kind of like a circus.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:38 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:17 pm


In this years-long debate, the only real explanations come from Antonio. The entire array of deniers is actually funny. All lined up and chatting nonsense. Kind of like a circus.
Explanations for exactly what? I can also come up with any theory, then provide some explanations for the theory (which, like in this case, can be self-contradicting and pure nonsense). But more important, the theory is for no real purpose, but stands just for itself. E.g. there is nothing of any relevance which the theory tries to explain. The theory is that there was a cover-up for a court-martial that never had happened (please read it out loud and then discover for yourselves how ridicolous that sounds - in one of the most critical phases in WW2, responsible and busy officers and politicians in GB took time and efforts to cover up something that never has happened).

Who needs a book on this, or who is interested in that? That is what I mean all the time, please go ahead and publish the book. A very small circle of friends and foes will read it and recognize it, but it adds zero to history or to wider knowledge. The circusmtance that the theory is not the slightest supported by any hard fact (hint: untimed films and artistic propaganda drawings are not hard facts), does not even matter anymore.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:07 pm

"Who needs a book on this, or who is interested in that? "
...how comfortable would have been the "fog of war" (and the beloved Kenendy's novel) for this insulting guy !
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:24 am

Hello Alberto,
Therefore the 1971/1990 map proposed by this guy is simply wrong. Full Stop.
Which guy? Baron Mullheim-Rechberg or Paul Schmalenbach? They both endorsed it.


For Alecsandros:

"A 1786 essay refers to an early, non-English form of the familiar saying “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.” Wrote George Horne, an English divine: “When a man deceives me once, says the Italian proverb, it is his fault; when twice, it is mine.” " You have been fooled many, many times. You saw the truth, briefly, and then allowed yourself to be deceived again and again. Do you really want, so much, to believe Antonio's fantasy of Cowardice, Conspiracy and Cover-up that you have suspended your intellectual curiosity and judgement completely?

You in 2016:
Simple: salvo 9 fired at 5:59:50, salvo 10 at 5:59:51, time of flight ~ 24-26 sec, strike time 6:00:15, explosion until 6:00:20.
Reload time 20 seconds AFTER salvo 9 and 10, means salvo 11 ready to fire at 6:00:10, salvo 12 at 6:00:11.
So salvo 11 and 12 in the air, and smoke from heavy gun mostly cleared by 6:00:15/16, time of impact from salvo 9 or 10.
Salvo 13 ready to fire against Hood already at 6:00:30 (salvo 11 + 20 secs) - but fired instead at Prince of Wales with minimal (or no kind of ?) correction. --
You need to calculate reload times between firings, not between impact and next salvo (in rapid fire mode, as I udnerstand it, the guns were firing at maximum rate of fire towards the projected target course, WITHOUT waiting for fall of shot).
You today:
the only real explanations come from Antonio.
If we are in the circus, look down at your shoes, and guess who's wearing the Red Nose. :lol:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

northcape
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:07 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:55 am
Hello everybody,

lets hope that those guys are at least able to read ... :think:

Well, those guys can read, but those other guys cannot think. May I provide you the correct translation to "Kurs von Bismarck gegisst durch Auswertung der PK Aufnahmen..."

You translated to "Course of Bismark by dead reckoning, based on evaluation of the PK fotos..."

"Dead reckoning" implies high accuracy, as it explicitely states estimating your locations from observed/measured velocities and course changes at given times, tied to astronomical fixes ("Koppelnavigation" in german). Now, of course in case of Bismarck, those data went down with the ship, so there can't be any dead reckoning. Also therefore, the original german caption "..gegisst durch.." translates correctly to "Course of Bismarck estimated from PK fotos etc.". This is again what it means to use (in this case: translate) infotmation in the right context. "Gegisst" is a nautical expression, but it strictly means estimating/reconstructing a course (based on whatever). In this case it can only mean "estimated from unreliable data", like you did in your map. Nobody (except you) knows why you have added (not mistranslated) the wrong and misleading term "dead reckoning".

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:31 am

northcape wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:38 pm
Explanations for exactly what?
For thousands of ridiculous questions that have been answered a very long time ago,
but that need to be dug up again and again, and AGAIN by people having way too much time on their hands.
Antonio isn't working on the "cover up" book - that's only what the busy people manage to grasp. Antonio has been working on a functional map and timetable for the Denmark Strait battle. THAT is what he will publish, along with Antonio. The Court Martial episode will be another page in the book, JUST LIKE IT IS IN SEVERAL OTHER BOOKS ALREADY.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:09 am

@Wadinga:

the Baron used the map in 1990 (we don't know based on what) but it is proven wrong by McMullen salvo plot (while the same Baron's one from 1980 is correct, having been evaluated with Schmalenbach and Dr.Rohwer looking at film and photos). I don't care who endorsed the 1990 map, as far as geometry demonstrates it is wrong.

Now, to try to be credible, Mr.Wadinga MUST tell us all at what time in his speculation Bismarck turned to 270° and how long she was on that course !

Answer please ! Stop blah-blah.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:57 am

northcape wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:38 pm
I can also come up with any theory, then provide some explanations for the theory
Round and round in circles (of hell) we go. Never seeing the light, never hearing the good word.

:quiet:

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