Bismarck firing procedures at DS

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:03 am

Hello everybody,
thanks to Mr.Jurens and to Byron Angel for their useful clarifications and interesting calculations.


Back however to the Bismarck track and firing, it is clear that Mr.Wadinga has been left alone by all his co-deniers with his theory that the correct battlemap is the 1990 one, published in the last edition of the Baron's book.

However, he has not yet admitted he was wrong supporting this last map as demonstrated by (my italic for a slight correction):
"I guess any sane person should be able to see that on course 270° Bismarck would NOT have closed the range vs Hood and PoW. Instead, she passed from 21150 yards at 05:56:10 (salvo 6 landing) to 16450 yards at 6:00:00 (salvo 13 landing). BOTH salvo 6 and 13 were straddles, therefore this distance change is surely CORRECT and Mr.Wadinga is once again rubbished in his desperate attempt to find a weak point in Antonio's reconstruction, by far the best available one .

Is Mr.Wadinga able to realize (despite his mathematical deficiency...) that such a closure rate (almost 5000 yards in 4 minutes) is simply physically impossible with Bismarck on course 270°?
Were Hood and PoW flying on the water @ 55+ knots following Bismarck in an (almost) stern chase ? :lol:

Therefore simply the 1990 map is TOTALLY WRONG (+ methodologically incorrect, as it does not respect even PG own track).
End of story (at least if Mr.Wadinga doesn't want to propose another theory about PoW firing against...fishes due to a "mirage" while Hood was hitting Bismarck instead.... :think: ... or that it was BC1 running north toward BS, as he ridiculously tried to state in his delirious post above :kaput:"

Instead of changing thread and subject, this guy should answer or finally... SHUT-UP, admitting the correct map is the 80's Baron/Schmalenbach/Rohwer one, very similar, even if less detailed, to Antonio's 2005 one !
He simply cannot run away as he did already with the set of bearings chosen by Antonio for the reconstruction of the battle.... :negative:

Anybody else wants to support the theory that Bismarck could have been on course 270° from 5:55 till 6:00 ?


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:31 am

Hello Alberto,

Looking at the definitive map of 1990 produced by two of the participants.
Look at the Baron's and Schmalenbach's map most recent map 1990, and see for yourself. Lutjens turns away to starboard at 05:55 in compliance with his instructions to avoid entanglement with British ships.

The Bismarck turns only gradually away, exactly as one would do if one wanted to maintain accurate gunnery. She is not on 270T for any length of time, if she made that at all, before swinging back to port. For most of the first turn, since she is not on 270T her rate of change relative to PoW is not zero. In the film there is no suggestion she is at 50 degrees course difference to PG, perhaps no more than 20 degrees divergence.

I ask again, will someone with a clear copy of the PoW salvo plot give the "assumed course" value at the top? McMullen's reductions in range on successive salvoes are composed of two elements: down ladder range reductions due to initial over estimation of range but also the the faulty rate from the clock due to poor inclination estimate, hence "enemy course".


Of course Bill's calculations are valid for Bismarck's firing too when she and her target are manoeuvring violently and if Bismarck cannot hit with 8 guns between 06:03 and 06:09 (not proven) then Aylwin's chances with single gun salvoes are even lower.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:04 am

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "The Bismarck turns only gradually away...She is not on 270T for any length of time, if she made that at all..."
Mr.Wadinga admits now that the 1990 map is totally wrong (in his NEW "opinion", she was never on course 270°, therefore the whole map has to be re-worked to allow the PG to keep the position vs the flagship that we see in the film and in the photos... :kaput: ). He should now work and produce his own battlemap instead of presenting his usual blah-blah.


Mr.Wadinga wants to invent a gradual turn now (totally unsupported) but he is still unable to realize that the film shows her on a constant course around 270° until almost the end of the film for 1,5 or 2 minutes....
This is proven by the photos taken at the time of the film, clearly showing her guns trained at extreme angle aft (only possible when on around course 270°).

Unfortunately for him, there is no way the range could diminish by almost 5000 yards in 4 minutes with Bismarck on any course more westerly than 220° (as per PoW salvo plot that he cannot deny). Again mathematics and geometry plays against his stubborn denial attempt (at least this time he was left alone by his co-deniers here in such an enormity).
Therefore even his new invented theory is already proven WRONG, before he is able (if ever...) to produce his own map.


It's sad to see how this guy is unable to simply admit an error.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:19 am

Hello everybody,

as anticipated long time ago, … now we have this " hooligan/denier " reaching the top of the list for the most absurd and invented fantasy written about the Denmark Strait battle track run by the Bismarck.

Mr. Winklareth has lost his leadership with his reverse photo theory, ... where at least he was keeping the Bismarck sailing toward the enemy, ... following the well know Prinz Eugen track, ... and not away, ... totally disregarding the Prinz Eugen known track and the photo and film evidence we have, ... :shock:

It does not surprise me at all given the pathetic performance he showed on the Norfolk track and bearings thread, ... :wink:

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 492#p79492

Congratulations, ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by pgollin » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:01 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:57 am
northcape wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:38 pm
I can also come up with any theory, then provide some explanations for the theory
Round and round in circles (of hell) we go. Never seeing the light, never hearing the good word.

:quiet:
.

This is hilarious, indeed the height of cheek. You have spent years being a controversialist, if not indeed a semi-troll on many boards, indeed being banned for a couple of years on at least one !

.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by pgollin » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:13 pm

.

A and A ;

Two suggestions.

One, yet again I would ask that you find a native English speaker to look over your work, you still come across at times as misdirecting yourselves over both official and colloquial English.

Second, I might suggest that IF you want people to take your "silver bullet", Jasper's letter to Raeder and the rest of your "magazine" of info seriously, but you do not want to make them public yet you have an ideal opportunity here with the presence of Bill Jurens. He is a professional and well understands the concept of academic confidentiality. You could send him the documents and he could, in agreement with yourselves, make a statement to this board (IF HE IS WILLING) along the lines of "yes/no, this information is a real game changer and does/does not convincingly prove A & A's ideas. His joint book on the Bismarck is due out at the end of January and hence will have been finished and being prepared for printing and transport. He would have the background DETAILED knowledge to appreciate whether your "new" info is indeed worthwhile.

.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:32 pm

pgollin wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:01 pm
This is hilarious, indeed the height of cheek. You have spent years being a controversialist, if not indeed a semi-troll on many boards, indeed being banned for a couple of years on at least one !
Realy ? Which one would that be ?
In any case, coming from you, banned repeadetedly (unfortunately NOT permanently on Navweapons) , it doesn't mean much.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:09 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:57 am
northcape wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:38 pm
I can also come up with any theory, then provide some explanations for the theory
Round and round in circles (of hell) we go. Never seeing the light, never hearing the good word.

:quiet:
If you would try to understand my post, there would be no need for this rather unrelated reply of yours.

My point is that the correct scientific/technical approach is of course the following: (1) we have a few "hard facts" (e.g. real observations like total number of shells fired, the fact that Hood was hit and exploded in a time very likely between 5:55 and 6:05, a few well estimated ranges, etc.). (2) Based on these facts and some other ideas/asssumptions, we reconstruct the battle (create a hypothesis). The timing of the film is part of the hypothesis, since the film has no time recorded (therefore there is no hard fact representing a timed film. (3) We try to verify or falsify our hypothesis by comparing its predictions (such as timing of the film) to the hard facts.

What A&A do, is the re-introduce their hypothesis of certain time marks of the film as a hard fact. This is equivalent to saying "I have proven that the earth is flat because my theory predicts that the earth is flat". If this does not sound very odd to you than I don't know.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:34 pm

Hello A & A,

I love the way you behave as if I had "invented" this map, as indeed Rob Winklareth invented his.
reaching the top of the list for the most absurd and invented fantasy written about the Denmark Strait battle track run by the Bismarck.

Mr. Winklareth has lost his leadership with his reverse photo theory,
Therefore even his new invented theory is already proven WRONG,
This is the last map created and approved by both Mullheim-Rechberg and Schmalenbach in 1990. Your obsession to push forward your own distorted and fabricated view blinds you to the fact you are contradicting three eye witnesses (including Lagemann). Sorry, four including Herzog. If you want to argue they are wrong and your fantasy is correct, fine. Pour your derision and insults on them, they won't care. But it is their map not my map and their photo captions not my interpretations and their survivor statement, not mine. Therefore sadly, I cannot accept your congratulations. :cool:
Mr.Wadinga admits now that the 1990 map is totally wrong
I say nothing of the sort, merely that the time spent on a course of 270T may be very short or non-existent. If you can tell what angle toward the stern Bismarck's guns are firing, I'll bet there are few others who would say such a thing was possible. If two gunnery officers, men with gyro repeaters and relative bearing devices right by them say Bismarck turned away before 06:00 that is strong evidence.


I can only presume you realize how damaging the "assumed course" for Bismarck written at the top of the salvo plot is, which why you withhold it like so much information contradicting your fantasy assertions. No matter, another visit to the original is on the cards. What a shame you can't keep all the evidence secret! :D


I do not intend to generate a fantasy map as you have done, based on distorting or avoiding evidence, or creating imaginary salvo charts for Bismarck when there is no actual information other than expended shells.


Hello Northcape,

I'm afraid you are wasting your time with Alexandros, his critical faculties have been entirely subsumed by A & A and he is in their thrall. He probably doesn't even recognise his own posts from a time when he dared disagree with them.


All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:49 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "I say nothing of the sort, merely that the time spent on a course of 270T may be very short or non-existent"
Thus Mr.Wadinga does say that the 1990 map is WRONG as it shows Bismarck on course 270° for 5 minutes. Is he able to see the contradiction he is saying or not ?

Anyway, on NO course other than 220° Bismarck could have closed the range to PoW by almost 5000 yards in 4 minutes.
This is based on geometry and it is incontrovertible
, but Mr.Wadinga is so ignorant in mathematics that he possibly cannot understand such an evident proof of the fact that (despite the Baron used it), the map is simply WRONG, as well as his "softened" version of it.... :lol:
I guess any sane person should be able to see that on course 270° Bismarck would NOT have closed the range vs Hood and PoW. Instead, she passed from 21150 yards at 05:56:10 (salvo 6 landing) to 16450 yards at 6:00:00 (salvo 13 landing). BOTH salvo 6 and 13 were straddles, therefore this distance change is surely CORRECT.
Is Mr.Wadinga able (or willing) to address this point ? NO, as usual, as well as he does "not intend to generate a fantasy map", because he is simply unable to put together the evidences and build his own reconstruction of the battle. :kaput:


Unfortunately for him and for all the deniers who at least left him alone in this last enormity (saying that there are at least "a few well estimated ranges" :lol: ), Antonio has done a reconstruction that is correct because it respects all available evidences and his work is here.


Come on Mr.Wadinga , don't be hesitant, SWITCH ON YOUR BRAIN ONCE SINCE MONTHS and explain us how the closure rate can be so high with ANY course more westerly than 220° from 5:56 till 6:00. :lol: :lol: :lol: ....He is disgustingly shameless in his denial frenzy recently....



Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:00 pm

northcape wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:09 pm
If this does not sound very odd to you than I don't know.
It does.
Problem is all of the questions you and others post have already been posted numerous times (literally dozens of times). Antonio is impossibly patient...

But as nobody is willing to dig into 4years+ of discussions (probably thousands of pages), the same questions arise again and again and again, an again, in circles, of hell. Instead of Antonio and Alberto, I would have stopped a LONG time ago from replying to endless ridiculous questions ("wasn't 6:13 a typo after all ?" "didn't the Baron SAY Norfolk and Suffolk were at 12 to 15miles distant ?" "didn't Prince of Wales manifest armament troubles before the battle ?", etc, etc, etc. That's not to say that the questions AREN'T RELEVANT in the economy of the historiography of the battle - of course they are - it's just that so much has been excavated around them, in terms of eye wittness descritions, official German and British reports, etc, etc, in years of research, that re-hashing them is , at the same time, a proof of superficial research into the previous debates on the forum, a certain lack of respect for the work of others (that have politely and patiently descbried their point of view, including the questions above countless times), and a rash judgment of a complicated affair... ). What I would have done would have been to stop working on the forum and instead concentrate on filing the documents into folders... folders into chapters, chapters into parts... and parts into a book.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:04 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:49 pm
Anyway, on NO course other than 220° Bismarck could have closed the range to PoW by almost 5000 yards in 4 minutes.
Dear Alberto,
with all due respect, I have a feeling you are purposefully ignoring the TELEPORTATION unit mounted on Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, that was used during Op. Rheinubung several times, to reposition ships on completely new coordinates and courses !

I hope you will take this matter into serious consideration and that your future replies will take it into account.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by northcape » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:03 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:00 pm
northcape wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:09 pm
If this does not sound very odd to you than I don't know.
It does.
Problem is all of the questions you and others post have already been posted numerous times (literally dozens of times). Antonio is impossibly patient...
Your reply does not make any sense to me. I did not ask any question. I simply stress out the naive (and wrong) approach to interpretation of historical evidences as done by A&A, which they disguise as a "scientific" method. If you mean that they are doing this since years, it does not make it any better.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:11 am

northcape wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:03 pm
I simply stress out the naive (and wrong) approach to interpretation of historical evidences as done by A&A, which they disguise as a "scientific" method.
Feel free to apply it and present the results here.

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Re: Bismarck firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:30 pm

Hello Alberto,

Your requirement for personal mano-a-mano combat and victory at all costs by any means, over "loosers" mean you could not let anybody else have the last word in any thread, which answers Alecsandros' query about why you keep posting. Also for your fantasy to gain any support at all (none garnered yet apart from the aforementioned, it must endlessly restated.


The Baron's 1990 map which was last shown as long ago as page 34 of this thread, is very sparse with timing marks and it would be difficult to say whether Bismarck steered west for five, four or three minutes. I see you could bring yourself to describe it as the Baron's map, but won't help by telling me what the assumed course on the salvo plot is. No matter.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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