Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War

[Alberto Virtuani]

Dunmunro wrote: "Note that it is Dorsetshire who was credited with the hit on the control top"

Hello Duncan, same 8" guns as Norfolk, aren't they ?

Anyway Norfolk did open fire on 27 from a greater distance than on 24 and not just to waste ammunitions, I suppose..... However she did not on May 24 when it was much more due !

Why ?

Bye, Alberto

[dunmunro]

Dunmunro wrote: "Note that it is Dorsetshire who was credited with the hit on the control top"

Hello Duncan, same 8" guns as Norfolk, aren't they ?

Anyway Norfolk did open fire on 27 from a greater distance than on 24 and not just to waste ammunitions, I suppose..... However she did not on May 24 when it was much more due !

Why ?

Bye, Alberto

The point is that we don't know at what range Norfolk opened fire at on May 27.

[Alberto Virtuani]

@ Dunmunro: I read in your post (please correct me if my understanding is wrong) that Norfolk was at 22000 yards and open fire albeit "without obtaining a range". Another County Class cruiser for sure had open fire at 20000 yards. Therefore on May 27, 22000 (or 20000) yards were considered to be a distance acceptable for using the 8" guns.

Why WW did not open fire on May 24, being at the same distance, when it was much more due ?

Bye, Alberto

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

welcome back Duncan. You wrote :

The point is that we don't know at what range Norfolk opened fire at on May 27.

YES, we do know at what range HMS Norfolk opened fire on Bismarck on May 27th, 1941. It was from 22.000 yards ( 10,86 sea miles = 20.116 meters ) at battle time 08.54.

Here following a detailed map from Battle Summary Nr. 5, the Plan 11 for May 27th, 1941, showing it in scale.

Norfolk_May27th_1941_open_fire.jpg (99.85 KiB) Viewed 930 times

Exactly the same distance that HMS Norfolk was from Bismarck at 06.00 on May 24th, 1941 according to HMS Hood First Board of Inquiry ( Adm Blake ) Diagram B.

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

welcome back Duncan. You wrote :

The point is that we don't know at what range Norfolk opened fire at on May 27.

YES, we do know at what range HMS Norfolk opened fire on Bismarck on May 27th, 1941. It was from 22.000 yards ( 10,86 sea miles = 20.116 meters ) at battle time 08.54.

Here following a detailed map from Battle Summary Nr. 5, the Plan 11 for May 27th, 1941, showing it in scale.

Norfolk_May27th_1941_open_fire.jpg

Exactly the same distance that HMS Norfolk was from Bismarck at 06.00 on May 24th, 1941 according to HMS Hood First Board of Inquiry ( Adm Blake ) Diagram B.

Bye Antonio

With the possible exception of KGV (when using radar), all the ranges and track plots in Battle Summary 5, for the final battle, are just approximations. No accurate ranges can be inferred from the plots.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

Norfolk distance being 22.000 yards is officially and clearly stated into the Royal Navy Admiralty report Battle Summary Nr. 5 of May 27th, 1941 at 08.54.
It reference Norfolk Gunnery report paragraph 26.

Everybody can read it into the section 38 : Commencement of the action, 0847/27

I have just draw for everybody convenience the line into the map, referencing the official stated distance on the narrative of that document.

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

Norfolk distance being 22.000 yards is officially and clearly stated into the Royal Navy Admiralty report Battle Summary Nr. 5 of May 27th, 1941 at 08.54.
It reference Norfolk Gunnery report paragraph 26.

Everybody can read it into the section 38 : Commencement of the action, 0847/27

I have just draw for everybody convenience the line into the map, referencing the official stated distance on the narrative of that document.

Bye Antonio

The report states that Norfolk opened fire without obtaining a range.

The track chart has two tracks for Bismarck; one presumably from KGV and the other from Rodney(!)- note the variation between the two! Why would Norfolk fire torpedoes beyond their maximum range? The plots for both cruisers are just approximations - nothing more.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

open fire with guns, ... not torpedo launch Duncan ... Norfolk opened fire at 08.54 from 22.000 yards.
Ref, her own gunnery report paragraph 26.

Norfolk_May_27_1941_22000_yards.jpg (123.49 KiB) Viewed 874 times

Bye Antonio

[dunmunro]

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

open fire with guns, ... not torpedo launch Duncan ... Norfolk opened fire at 08.54 from 22.000 yards.
Ref, her own gunnery report paragraph 26.



Bye Antonio

It clearly states: "...that she opened fire without obtaining a range..." therefore 22,000 yds is just an approximation, and the actual range may have been considerably less, especially given her decision to fire torpedoes when the track chart shows her well outside torpedo range: "...the Rodney fired six torpedoes at 11,000 yards and the Norfolk four at 16,000 yards (footnote: According to the track chart her distance was 21000 yds at 0906) none of which hit." So we see a 5000 yard variation between Norfolk's decision to fire torpedoes and her range according to the track chart, with the clear implication being that her actual range on opening fire was much less than the track chart suggests.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@Dunmunro,

Norfolk gunnery officer stated he opened fire from 220 ( meaning 22.000 yards ) with salvo 1.

Surely between May 24th and May 27th, Norfolk distances from the enemy has been a real " Enigma ", as they had lots of difficulties apparently to evaluate the enemy and their distance from him.

But in January next year I hope to find all the official tracks and maps that for way too many years has never being published.

Bye Antonio

[Alberto Virtuani]

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "Surely between May 24th and May 27th, Norfolk distances from the enemy has been a real " Enigma "

I agree that enemy (and even friends...) distance evaluation on board of Norfolk was quite a problem during the whole operation, possibly starting from 23 night......

However battle summary statement that Norfolk open fire when the distance was estimated at 22000 yards (confirmed by Norfolk gunnery report) and Dorsetshire at 20000 yards, demonstrate that this range was considered GOOD enough to EFFECTIVELY use 8" guns against a battleship by both County Class cruisers.

At more or less the same distance, Norfolk did not open fire on May 24, when her support, initially to Holland and then to PoW, was much more due than on May 27. WHY ?

Bye, Alberto

[Byron Angel]

The answer is simple: The Br CAs did not engage because W/W was operating upon the principle that maintaining shadow contact with Bismarck was of overriding importance to the operation and that even a single major caliber hit from Bismarck could prevent that mission from being carried out.

And, no, at the time W/W did not have any foreknowledge that Bismarck would give him the slip the following night.

As Groucho Marx once observed: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

B

[alecsandros]

The answer is simple: The Br CAs did not engage because W/W was operating upon the principle that maintaining shadow contact with Bismarck was of overriding importance to the operation

To shadow who and why ?

The engagement between PoW, Hood, BS and PE, would be a decisive one. Nobody knew how it would turn out, but, regardless, the battle was fought in order to destroy the Bismarck, so "keeping out of the battle in order to shadow the enemy" looks more like defeatism.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Byron Angel wrote: "The answer is simple: The Br CAs did not engage because W/W was operating upon the principle that maintaining shadow contact with Bismarck was of overriding importance to the operation and that even a single major caliber hit from Bismarck could prevent that mission from being carried out."

Byron, I can't agree: the mission of the British forces was not an exercise at sea to practice shadowing techniques against a potential enemy.....

Once the cruisers had shadowed BS (for better or worse during the night from 23 to 24....), and after the enemy report from PoW at 5:37, for ALL ships involved the clear duty was to attack and possibly sink, stop or at least damage BS and PG.
To stay out of a battle as a spectator is only acceptable if explicitly ordered so, however I'm not aware of any order to WW exempting him from fighting....
Any heavy hit from BS to Norfolk was very unlikely due to the presence of the British battleships (Lutjens would not have turned the 15" guns to Norfolk until having sunk PoW and Hood) and any 8" hit on BS or PG from Norfolk could have been very valuable to achieve the above mission objectives.

Only the fact that BS was sunk on May 27 (thanks to Ark Royal, not to Norfolk), saved WW from a well due Investigation and possible Court-Martial.

Bye, Alberto

[RF]

IMHO to stop a dangerous commerce raider was in the vital interests of Britain, well worth the risk to have PoW damaged.

What isn't considered is the risk of POW being sunk.....