Bismarck Returns to Norway

[alecsandros]

Well you could say that was the price of being a hybrid ship - hybrid in that it was called a battleship but actually wasn't, while it was too big to present only a cruiser size target....

Bit like Blucher in WW1......

Hmm..
What happened to her had, especialy at North Cape, not much things to do with her being a hybrid..

[Vic Dale]

Scharnhorst was a fast battleship. True she carried 11 inch guns when other ships carried 15 or 16 inch cannons, but she had the capacity to have her main battery increased to 6x15".

The battlecruiser concept was first adopted by the British Royal Navy; a large hull capable of supporting battleship guns and carrying them at high speed, with armour comparable to that of a cruiser. They were not expected to take a place in the line of battle though they often did and with disastrous results. Armour was sacrificed for speed.

Hood was designed as a battlecruiser, but after the losses at Jutland among the battlecruiser compliment, she had her armour outfit increased to at least that of the QE and RS class battleships. She became in effect a fast battleship, though she retained her designation as a Battlecruiser.

Post WWI the KM was limited to battleships with guns no larger than 11inch, so a vessel armoured to battleship standard and with 11 inch guns would always be a battleship. The Germans had their own battlecruisers in WWI so it is clear that they fully understood the concept. Scharnhorst was launched as a battleship and that is how she was designated throughout her life. It was the British who labelled her a battlecruiser and it is not entirely clear whether that was for tactical or propaganda purposes.

The 11 inch guns carried in the Scharnhorst class were high velocity weapons with an extremely long maximum range and with penetrative power equal to that of the British 15 inch MKI. The Rate of Fire was more than 3 times that of the British weapon. In a slugging match no British battleship could expect to come out of it without suffering heavy damage and most might be overwhelmed.

[alecsandros]

Post WWI the KM was limited to battleships with guns no larger than 11inch, so a vessel armoured to battleship standard and with 11 inch guns would always be a battleship. The Germans had their own battlecruisers in WWI so it is clear that they fully understood the concept. Scharnhorst was launched as a battleship and that is how she was designated throughout her life. It was the British who labelled her a battlecruiser and it is not entirely clear whether that was for tactical or propaganda purposes.

True, she was launched as a battleship, but I'd say she was not a battleship by WW2 standards.

The 11 inch guns carried in the Scharnhorst class were high velocity weapons with an extremely long maximum range and with penetrative power equal to that of the British 15 inch MKI. The Rate of Fire was more than 3 times that of the British weapon. In a slugging match no British battleship could expect to come out of it without suffering heavy damage and most might be overwhelmed.

So true...

the problem was the 330kg projectile lacked the punch necessary to inflict heavy damage, once inside the enemy armor citadel. Thus at least 3 shells of 11" were required to make similar damage of a single 15" shell..

[dunmunro]

The 11 inch guns carried in the Scharnhorst class were high velocity weapons with an extremely long maximum range and with penetrative power equal to that of the British 15 inch MKI. The Rate of Fire was more than 3 times that of the British weapon. In a slugging match no British battleship could expect to come out of it without suffering heavy damage and most might be overwhelmed.

The 28cm had a very long range, but it was considerably inferior to the RN 15in in penetration and while it's RoF was better it was no where near 3x better.

[Thorsten Wahl]

Post WWI the KM was limited to battleships with guns no larger than 11inch, so a vessel armoured to battleship standard and with 11 inch guns would always be a battleship. The Germans had their own battlecruisers in WWI so it is clear that they fully understood the concept. Scharnhorst was launched as a battleship and that is how she was designated throughout her life. It was the British who labelled her a battlecruiser and it is not entirely clear whether that was for tactical or propaganda purposes.

True, she was launched as a battleship, but I'd say she was not a battleship by WW2 standards.

the Scharnhorst class was officially intended to counter the french (small) Battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg and not to produce a offense step against naval superiority of Britain.

[RF]

the Scharnhorst class was officially intended to counter the french (small) Battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg and not to produce a offense step against naval superiority of Britain.

This is entirely right, however there is no real logic to it as far as I can see. France, so far as being an enemy of Germany, is a land power with a common border with Germany. Therefore any decisive military action on the part of Germany against France has to be on land, supported by an air force. In no way can Germany force the capitulation of France solely by action at sea. Anihilating the French Navy is irrelevant to defeating France; indeed in neither world wars did the Germans plan any naval operation exclusively aimed at France.

[RF]

Well you could say that was the price of being a hybrid ship - hybrid in that it was called a battleship but actually wasn't, while it was too big to present only a cruiser size target....

Bit like Blucher in WW1......

Hmm..
What happened to her had, especialy at North Cape, not much things to do with her being a hybrid..

Really? Nine 11 inch against ten 14 inch plus eight 8 inch? Had Scharnhorst the six 15 inch guns she would have had a much better chance......

[Vic Dale]

Those nine 11inch guns had greater range and similar penetrative power to the 14 cannons of the KGV class, despite the shell weighing less than half that of the latter. They were high velocity weapons, which the KGV's 14" were not.

On paper a first sight comparison makes the SK C/38, 28cm look greatly inferior to the British 14 inch MkII, but when the study is done in detail it is quickly realised that the two weapons were comparable. The SK C/38 could penetrate more than 13 inches of side armour at 16,500 yards whereas the 14" MII could manage just that thickness at 15,800 yards. The two were very close.

At a range of 28,000 yards the 14" would be ineffective against side armour but would be able to penetrate increasing thicknesses of deck armour as the angle of descent steepened, to a maximum of 5". At the same range, the SK C/38 would only be able to penetrate about 3" of deck armour, but still be able to penetrate 8" of side armour. At 20,000 yards the 14" would penetrate 11" of side armour and barely anything of deck armour, whereas the 28cm would get through 11.5 inches. It is difficult to make an exact comparison, but the exercise does show how close the two ships were in fighting capability.

The rates of fire for the 14" and the 28cm were 2 rounds per minute and 3.5 rounds per minute respectively. So once the range had been found and rapid broadsides were ordered, a Scharnhorst could make a serious mess of a KGV.

The outcome of any slugging match between a KGV and a Scharnhorst would depend on how many hits registered. It might be quite instructive to see the effect of 20 heavy hits on a KGV from the 28cm SK C/38. In battle the more reliable 28cm might make the difference against the less reliable 14"

[dunmunro]

Those nine 11inch guns had greater range and similar penetrative power to the 14 cannons of the KGV class, despite the shell weighing less than half that of the latter. They were high velocity weapons, which the KGV's 14" were not.

On paper a first sight comparison makes the SK C/38, 28cm look greatly inferior to the British 14 inch MkII, but when the study is done in detail it is quickly realised that the two weapons were comparable. The SK C/38 could penetrate more than 13 inches of side armour at 16,500 yards whereas the 14" MII could manage just that thickness at 15,800 yards. The two were very close.

At a range of 28,000 yards the 14" would be ineffective against side armour but would be able to penetrate increasing thicknesses of deck armour as the angle of descent steepened, to a maximum of 5". At the same range, the SK C/38 would only be able to penetrate about 3" of deck armour, but still be able to penetrate 8" of side armour. At 20,000 yards the 14" would penetrate 11" of side armour and barely anything of deck armour, whereas the 28cm would get through 11.5 inches. It is difficult to make an exact comparison, but the exercise does show how close the two ships were in fighting capability.

The rates of fire for the 14" and the 28cm were 2 rounds per minute and 3.5 rounds per minute respectively. So once the range had been found and rapid broadsides were ordered, a Scharnhorst could make a serious mess of a KGV.

The outcome of any slugging match between a KGV and a Scharnhorst would depend on how many hits registered. It might be quite instructive to see the effect of 20 heavy hits on a KGV from the 28cm SK C/38. In battle the more reliable 28cm might make the difference against the less reliable 14"

Vic, these numbers are a long way from reality. Take a look here:

http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Pe ... ermany.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Pe ... ritain.htm

The above tables are a fairly close match with actual test results. The KM 28cm is not even close to the RN 14in, which was a very hard hitting weapon indeed.

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
I think that put in boxing terms, a good big one will always beat a good little one! Even if Scharnhorst had 6 x 15" she was facing too many adversaries at North Cape - at best she might have escaped severely damaged.

[alecsandros]

Really? Nine 11 inch against ten 14 inch plus eight 8 inch? Had Scharnhorst the six 15 inch guns she would have had a much better chance......

That's true,
but I was refering to her bad luck that day... even with 6x15", there would still be the bad luck of having a single 8" shell disabling her main radar... which in turn would make her unaware of the DUke's presence. The Duke's opening salvo took out both forward turrets; and I guess it would have been teh same if those turrest had 15" guns. She would be left would 2 x 15" aft guns... completely insufficient against the British firewpower...
Finaly, her machinery breakdown (or long range perforating hit by the Duke) would have been the final nail in her coffin... As even if she would restore all 3 turrets, it would not be enough to stop the 4 destroyers from making their daring torpedo attack, and puting 4 fishes in her belly. And that would be that...

[RNfanDan]

Vic, these numbers are a long way from reality.

Are these numbers good for the newer, more powerful 11-inch model carried by S&G, or those for the older model carried aboard the Deutschland -class Panzerschiffe?

@Vic: The 14" carried by the King George V battleships were not "cannons", but naval rifles (point of order); they would have been useless as cannons.

Thanks, gentlemen.

[Dave Saxton]

Gentlemen,
I think that put in boxing terms, a good big one will always beat a good little one! Even if Scharnhorst had 6 x 15" she was facing too many adversaries at North Cape - at best she might have escaped severely damaged.

Historically Scharnhorst almost did escape. At 18:24 hours Duke of York ceased fire and Fraser commenting that there was little hope in catching Scharnhorst now. Bey sent a message: "Scharnhorst immer vorran" and they crew drew a sigh of relief. Adm Fraser called off the chase issuing orders to his own ships low on fuel to procede to Russian ports while the Duke of York prepared to turn back and guard against SH doubling back along the northern coast of Norway. Then 15 to 20 minutes after Duke of York ceased fire, radar began to plot Scharnhorst loosing speed and Fraser ordered his destroyers in with torpedoes to further slow it down before it could re-gain its speed. And Scharnhorst was re-gaining its speed. IO Koenig reported that he should get the speed up from 22 knots to 26 knots shortly. It was a very close shave between SH escaping and being cornered.

[Vic Dale]

Vic, these numbers are a long way from reality.

Are these numbers good for the newer, more powerful 11-inch model carried by S&G, or those for the older model carried aboard the Deutschland -class Panzerschiffe?

@Vic: The 14" carried by the King George V battleships were not "cannons", but naval rifles (point of order); they would have been useless as cannons.

Thanks, gentlemen.

Well they came from Navweaps, here; http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-545_skc34.htm

As I said it is difficult to make a direct comparison, because the various tests were done under differing conditions.

The point I am making is; Scharnhorst was a battleship, however well or poorly she performed under varying circumstances. At the Denmark Strait for example, I have no doubt that she could have forced PoW to turn away and make smoke, given the same number of hits and in the same locations. Three of Bismarck's four shells failed to explode on impact and the other burst above armour, so the impacts might have been very similar in their effect if fired from Scharnhorst.

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
I think that put in boxing terms, a good big one will always beat a good little one! Even if Scharnhorst had 6 x 15" she was facing too many adversaries at North Cape - at best she might have escaped severely damaged.

Historically Scharnhorst almost did escape. At 18:24 hours Duke of York ceased fire and Fraser commenting that there was little hope in catching Scharnhorst now. Bey sent a message: "Scharnhorst immer vorran" and they crew drew a sigh of relief. Adm Fraser called off the chase issuing orders to his own ships low on fuel to procede to Russian ports while the Duke of York prepared to turn back and guard against SH doubling back along the northern coast of Norway. Then 15 to 20 minutes after Duke of York ceased fire, radar began to plot Scharnhorst loosing speed and Fraser ordered his destroyers in with torpedoes to further slow it down before it could re-gain its speed. And Scharnhorst was re-gaining its speed. IO Koenig reported that he should get the speed up from 22 knots to 26 knots shortly. It was a very close shave between SH escaping and being cornered.

You are quite right of course, but this was not a stand up fight to the end between two battleships, Scharnhorst was running for her life having been successfully ambushed by a number of British ships. I don't think that even with 6x15" Scharnhorst would have stood up in a one on one battle with DoY, she had the potential to do a lot more damage of course, but I also do not think her 9x11" would have incapacitated DoY in a one against one either, despite the claims being made for them in this forum.