Antonio:? about Denmark St.

[Dave Saxton]

When at 0440 hours (PG clocks) when the PG's GHG array detected the Hood and Prince of Wales, what was the distance between PG and Holland's ships?

Only 13 minutes later at 0453 Hood opened fire from 25,000 yards (22,860 meters). Going from Schmalenbach's maps, which are each slightly different, I'm guessing about 30,000 meters maybe a little more at 0440?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Helo Dave,

here you go, from my re-construction :

At 05:21 the German ships changed course to 170° at 27 knots. At 05:32 they went back to a of course 220° at 27 knots (13), with the Prinz Eugen leading the Bismarck by 2700 yards (2500 meters).

At 05:35 the spotters on board Prince of Wales reported smoke on the horizon and at 05:37 the British battleship transmitted her enemy report radio signal from 38,00 yards (34,700 meters):

“Emergency to Admiralty and C in C Home Fleet. One battleship and one heavy cruiser, bearing 335, distance 17 nautical miles. My position 63-20 North, 31-50 West. My course 240. Speed 28 knots.“

This message could have been intercepted by the German ships, in fact at 05:37 the Prinz Eugen identified a ship (suspected light cruiser per the B-Dienst) on the port side (14), at a distance of 37,300 yards (34,100 meters). At the same time, the two British battleships turned 40° to starboard to a course of 280° still at 28 knots.

At 05:41 the Norfolk, closing the distance from east established visual contact with the enemy at 15 nautical miles or 30,000 yards (27,780 meters) and transmitted an enemy report (15).

While distances were closing in, the Hood transmitted her enemy report at 05:43 :

“Emergency to Admiralty and C in C Home Fleet. One battleship and one heavy cruiser, bearing 337, distance 17 nautical miles. My position 63-20 North, 31-50 West. My course 240. Speed 28 knots.”

Probably intercepting this message from Hood, the Prinz Eugen identified another unit closing in at 05:43 and evaluated the distance at 34,446 yards (31,484 meters) or exactly 17 nautical miles, just as reported by the Hood’s radio message, and with same bearing of 337°, or to be precise it should have been the opposite so 157°; the presence of 337° and 17 nautical miles. This was confirmed by the decryption of the Hood radio message from Prinz Eugen (16).

Bye Antonio

[Dave Saxton]

Ah thank you,

About 31,000 meters it was then.

The average rate of closure would have been about 860 meters per minute from 0543 to 0553. At 0553 the distance between BS and POW would have a been a bit greater, those being the following ships in each formation; about 26,000 yards (23,750 meters).

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello Dave,

I think it is correct what you state, but you can always use my re-constructed battle map that was done in exact scale to make all your evaluations.

Here in on the Hood website Denmark strait documentation resource :

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrai ... trait2.htm

or in the pdf on this website into the Articles section :

http://www.kbismarck.com/articles.html

Bye Antonio

[RNfanDan]

Without wishing to divert this thread in any way, I think the GHG aboard Prinz Eugen was a remarkable device and probably benefited from ideal or near-ideal thermal-layer conditions, that morning. No doubt, its operator(s) were trained well and knew their job to a peak of competence.

Dan

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Dan,

I agree with you ... and the same did Hans Henning Von Schulz when I met him ... and he was in charge of that weapon at Denmark Strait ...


Bye Antonio

[paulcadogan]

When at 0440 hours (PG clocks) when the PG's GHG array detected the Hood and Prince of Wales, what was the distance between PG and Holland's ships?

Just to clarify....according to PG's KTB the noises were detected at 0407 (0507).

0407 : Sound listening section reports noises bearing 286 deg. Nothing can be detected on the horizon.

Then at 0425 (0525) "torpedo noises" were reported bearing 195 deg. Then at 0437/0537 the presumed "light cruiser" was sighted to port.

At 0440 (0540) Hood & PoW were in plain sight. At 0407/0507, the range should have been significantly greater!

[Dave Saxton]

Intersting Paul,

Schmalenbach was an officer on watch as the enccounter materialized. In his accounts he refers to his own notes up to 0450 before giving way to the recorded KTB.

0400 On duty port side Kriegeswache
0440 horchraum (listening station) reports to kriegeswachleiter: "287* sounds from two high speed turbine ships!" Foremast radar and foremast optics are on the bearing but can not identify the contacts. Reported to Kmdt and to Bismarck.
0445 Alarm is sounded.
0450 Ship is cleared for action. Two opponants in sight. Due to sea spray and own smoke the exact types still can not be determined.

That's my inexact translation though.........

My main concern was about pinning down the range at 0440/0540.

[paulcadogan]

OK Dave, but question:

Are the reported bearings of the contacts relative to the ships' course or actual - i.e. relative to due north? Something doesn't add up....

First, BS & PG were on 220 degrees, so an actual bearing of 286 (or 287) deg would put the contact 66 deg off their starboard bow - certainly not Hood & PoW! Relative bearing would be just about right - just forward of the port beam.

At 0525, when BS & PE were on course 170 deg, 195 deg actual would again be 15 deg off the starboard bow, while 195 deg relative would be port quarter. This time the former might conceivably match H & PoW's position (though I still think they should have been port bow at that point), the latter maybe Suffolk's (which would have been port quarter at that specific point).

So I'm a little confused...which is it?

[Dave Saxton]

I agree it has to be relative bearing.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Paul and Dave,

YES, the Kriegsmarine/German always used relative bearings ( the 0-360 is their sailing direction ) and hectometers for distances ( 1 hectometer = 100 meters ) ...

This is the reason why when Brinkmann wrote on his battle map 337 degrees ( bearing of the german ships taken from the british ships and not relative but using the north as 0-360 degree reference as the Royal Navy used ) and 17 sm ( sea miles ) ... it is for sure he got the Hood report intercepted and written down on his map.

Bye Antonio

[paulcadogan]

OK...so the 0507 report indicated Hood & PoW and the 0525 "torpedo noises" came from the direction of Suffolk.

Now...another question: The GHG picked up two high speed vessels at 0507 on the starboard beam, why did Lutjens turn towards them at 0521 - i.e going from 220 degrees onto 170 degrees? That turn certainly brought on the coming encounter sooner than it would have otherwise been. One would think Lutjens would want to avoid further enemy contact.....

[Dave Saxton]

The German Navy did use nautical miles for navigation purposes as well. A nautical mile works well with charts and such delineations as degrees and minutes and so forth because of the circumfrence of the Earth.

"Sea miles" is most often used to describe speed in the German language documents though-sea miles = knots. You must use the context. (A modern nautical mile = 1852 meters.)

The KM always used the metric Hectometers for battle ranges as Antonio points out. Their rangefinding gear and their FC was set up that way.

Radar works well with metric measurement because the speed of radio waves is right close to exactly 300 meters, a nice round number, every millionth of second. The sweep speeds of indicators, and really all timed events, in radar fit nicely with metric distance measurement because metric is base ten. Metric distance is much easier to work with-except for navigation.

Relative bearing is often used intraship but not always intership. For example in the RN, you have green and red indicating left and right so aboard a ship if something is seen directly to starboard at 90* the look out will call out "Green 90!" (I hope I didn't mix up my colors there!) This is a type of relative bearing used a board a ship.

In the early battles in the Solomons it was found that not all USN ships were always on the same page; with some sometimes using relative, some using true, and some using magnetic. With talk between ships this quickly turned into a big mess. Orders were issued to always use true north as the reference point.

[Dave Saxton]

OK...so the 0507 report indicated Hood & PoW and the 0525 "torpedo noises" came from the direction of Suffolk.

Now...another question: The GHG picked up two high speed vessels at 0507 on the starboard beam, why did Lutjens turn towards them at 0521 - i.e going from 220 degrees onto 170 degrees? That turn certainly brought on the coming encounter sooner than it would have otherwise been. One would think Lutjens would want to avoid further enemy contact.....

But this was PG's GHG reports. Did Luetjens know about them? Was Luetjen's (or his navigator) just making sure he had a safe margin with the ice to his starboard? I seem to recall that Brinkmann dismissed these earlier GHG reports as possible abberations or too fleeting to rely on in his KTB comments.