Hit on POW compass platform

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wadinga
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:00 pm

Hi Tommy,

Thanks for the info - do you have an opinion on whether this hit could have been 8"? Alternatively do you think it was an unexploded 15" and Woods' account is suspect?

Antonio thinks the British report on the Compass Platform hit is definitely correct (I thought all British statements were now suspect) :cool: , but to my mind the only hits that are definitely identified, are the two the British measured. That is real evidence. The report Antonio has posted, of which I have read every detail avidly, identifies purely on damage, and that is an estimate, not real measurable evidence. There are no 15" holes. There are no 15" fragments. There is no more real evidence that it was 15" rather than 8".

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by tommy303 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:36 pm

My own personal opinion is the shell was a 38cm APC from Bismarck and not a base-fuzed HE from Prinz Eugen. A 38cm shell would have been unlikely to be slowed enough by anything in its way through the compass platform and surrounding bulwark to initiate fuze action, and if it did detonate it would probably have done so in the sea. If for some reason the fuze had been initiated, it would have been able to travel perhaps 60 feet before bursting. I personally trust the opinion of the dockside experts that examined the damage and believe the conclusion to be correct. Had the shell been a 20,3cm base fuzed HE, which Jasper fired throughout the action saving for the initial ranging salvos, there is a slightly increased chance the fuze might have initiated since an 8-inch shell has much less inertia and can be slowed more by structure. However, in my opinion the possibility of fuze initiation in this case is still rather small. In any case, the velocity of the shell would have put the burst well clear of the ship had it occurred. I think there is much more reason to suppose that the shell which hit the HA/LA director tower might have initiated and exploded in the air near the ship, pariticularly if this was a 20,3cm as suspected by some experts rather than a 38cm as originally supposed.

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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by tommy303 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:30 pm

Another minor point to consider, both the 20,3cm and 38cm shells would have still been supersonic at the range at which the hit occurred, so it is likely someone closed to the shell's path might have experienced a sonic boom and interpreted the sound as a shell detonation, particularly in combination of the racket the shell must have made as it passed through structure.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:55 pm

@ Tommy303: thanks Tommy for confirming the 8" German shell characteristics , I fully agree with your overall evaluation of the hit (and with your considerations about the sonic boom). :clap:
RNfanDan wrote: "
Alberto Virtuani wrote: "... and IF a 15" or a 8" exploded just outside the compass platform, it would not have left just a circular hole on the Splinter Shield of the Upper Bridge Searchlight Sights position....."
This is incorrect. There are a number of examples of AP shells piercing thin structures without exploding, or delayed in their explosion for long enough to burst clear of such surfaces. The shell will be delayed in its explosion after a triggering impact for a certain amount of time, to allow the shell to travel deeper inside the target, once it strikes the armor............... "
Hi, you are right of course. Sorry, my fault, I was unclear in my sentence: I meant that if the shell exploded just outside the compass platform, so between the compass platform and the SLS bridge splinter shield, it would not have left just a puncture in the bulwark. So IF it exploded (that I don't believe), it could have exploded only outside the ship.

Bye, Alberto
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RNfanDan
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by RNfanDan » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:34 am

Understood, sir! :ok:
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Dave Saxton » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:10 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

the shell was NOT an 8 inches ( 203 mm ) shell from Prinz Eugen.

The shell was a 15 inches ( 381 mm ) fired by Bismarck main artillery; the PoW damage report leaves NO DOUBTS about it.

Please, unless you have real evidences of the opposite, ... avoid to include the 8 inches ( 203 mm ) of Prinz Eugen or even the 150 mm ( 6 inches ) of Bismarck secondary into the possibilities.

I have attached above the full page about this shell just to avoid it ... but apparently few ones has read it.

Bye Antonio :D

Right. Since the shell path is known and the relative courses of the ships are known; it could only have come from the Bismarck's firing position if these parameters are more or less correct (and I believe they are). This leaves only 38cm or 15cm as possibilities. 15cm based on the damage report is not as plausable.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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wadinga
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:35 pm

Really Dave,

I'm surprised how easily you are persuaded.

We may know the angle at which the Compass platform was struck, and therefore derive the course on which PoW was at that instant, referenced to whichever German ship hit her.

For instance if there was no turn to conform with Hood's last turn, then the instant PoW starts to turn to starboard to avoid the wreck, away from 280T neither German ship can hit her, because the angle is wrong, and this situation continues until the turn to starboard is killed, and a corresponding turn to port is made to go back through 280T, whereupon PoW is already turning to port when the hit is made, temporarily disabling the Compass Platform staff. Superman Leach, despite being being within 3m of a supersonic shockwave generating shell, instantaneously either runs down below or steps to the undamaged voicepipes and gives the order to turn to port. Which is unnecessary.......... as they are already turning to port. :?

Dang!...... OK lets run that again. This time in Rowell's words
We put the wheel over to starboard to give us a greater clearance from the wreckage and by the time we were abreast of her all that apparently remained were three large sections of the hull which were unrecognisable and themselves slipping into the water.
"only I actually forgot to mention that even though we were steering a 35,000 ton battleship where nothing happens if you put the rudder hard over, for at least 30 seconds, an instant after we turned the wheel to avoid a sinking battlecruiser, we instantly turned the wheel back again so that 50 secs after the battlecruiser blew up we passed through 280T and a shell came in through the window. Then the Captain gave the order.......Except we would be turning port already....."

"We turned hard to starboard, then we turned to port, then we turned hard to starboard again, then we turned to port again so as to steady on 280T when the shell came in the window." In 50 seconds. No really!

Despite the dockyard report being so definite about the Compass Platform hit, with no direct evidence, the HA DCT hit which is said to be from the same salvo has always been "possibly" 8". Does that mean the same is true of the CP hit?

If the HA DCT hit had happened after the CP hit, Woods would have been killed along with the men he was helping, out on the open deck.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:28 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,


if you have better timing than Hunter-Terry ... or a better event description than Rowell maps and Capt. Leach narratives .... please tell us Sean ... :wink:

Here in graphic format with the photos and films support their event timings.
PoW_retreat.jpg
PoW_retreat.jpg (110.62 KiB) Viewed 1829 times
Of course allow me to remind you that the overall timing, ... no matter in which way you will put the events, ... either trusting or not the witness narratives, ... must remain into this elapsed time, ... 06.00 and 10 seconds ... and 06.03 and 25 seconds ... just as those 2 well known photos shows you.

Hood explosion at 06.00 and 10 seconds :
Time_NH69724.jpg
Time_NH69724.jpg (74.34 KiB) Viewed 1828 times
Y turret local control first salvo of 2 shells ( 19th PoW salvo in total ) landing short of German Warships at 06.03 and 25 seconds.
Time_NH69731.jpg
Time_NH69731.jpg (84.56 KiB) Viewed 1828 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Dave Saxton
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:21 pm

wadinga wrote:Really Dave,

I'm surprised how easily you are persuaded............

wadinga
Well I did write: "if those parameters are correct..." so I'm open to adjustment in the light of additional evidence. I got the protractor out and It looks like it came from Bismarck- unless the relative courses are different at the time points.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:51 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dave Saxton,

it came from Bismarck Dave you are correct of course, ... and it was a 15 inches shell ( 381 mm ).

The Bismarck shell hit HMS Prince of Wales while on course 280 degrees with a Bismarck first salvo landing on her, ... a couple of seconds before PoW fired her 16th salvo to Bismarck, ... with both forward and aft turrets confirming she was on course 280 degrees so she can fire Y turret too, ... as we can see on the PG Film.
PoW_Compass_Platform_hit_0600_48seconds.jpg
PoW_Compass_Platform_hit_0600_48seconds.jpg (59.21 KiB) Viewed 1795 times
PoW_16th_salvo_0600_50 seconds.jpg
PoW_16th_salvo_0600_50 seconds.jpg (59.81 KiB) Viewed 1795 times
PoW_vs_PG_time.jpg
PoW_vs_PG_time.jpg (105.85 KiB) Viewed 1795 times
The correct timing is provided by official PoW maps and in line with a very close tolerance with Prinz Eugen war diary and timing.

Just as a reference both for the Hood explosion as well as for the Y turret landing salvoes we can assume a tolerance of 10 seconds.

In fact :

1) Hood explosion time as for Nh 69724 with PoW gunnery map timing ( British side ) 06.00 and 10 seconds --- > Prinz Eugen war diary : 06.00 and 20 seconds

2 ) Y turret 19th salvo landing time on NH 69731 with PoW gunnery map : 06.03 and 25 seconds --- > Prinz Eugen film and battle map : 06.03 and 35 seconds

As said the timing of the overall events is a given, ... from 06.00 and 10 seconds ... until 06.03 and 25 seconds ... :wink:

All the events described must fit in there ... and they fit ... everything occurred very fast ... in that timeframe.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by wadinga » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:45 pm

Hello Antonio,

It is of course impossible that the hit on the Compass Platform was recorded on film from 8 miles away, if the shell did not explode, because there is no flash to see.

It is clear in your excerpts and even more obvious in the moving image that the left hand "bright spot" is a shell splash which builds from the base and is not a record of Y turret firing.

V Tarrant has more detail on the 8" shell which hit the HA DCT support and is often considered to be from the same salvo as the Compass Platform hit. Can scan the original dockyard report or should I retype from the book?

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:58 pm

Wadinga wrote: "It is clear in your excerpts and even more obvious in the moving image that the left hand "bright spot" is a shell splash which builds from the base and is not a record of Y turret firing."
Hi Sean,
you are right that the shape of the bright spot is the same as the shell slash 2 seconds before, however the sudden brightness of the flashes in the second image leave no doubt that they are the PoW big guns firing from both the fore and aft turrets.

The fact that the shape is the one of the shell splash is due to the fact that the splash spay is still in the air and the Y turret firing is lightening the spray from behind, producing this effect. What we can say is that this shell splash fell really close to PoW side.....

Bye, Alberto
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:08 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

Sean, of course Alberto is right about the movie pics, ... there is a huge difference between the water column and the bright spot of the Y turret firing.

We already discussed months ago about this fantastic finding by Thorsten Wahl ... it is a given by now ... :wink:

It is by realizing that many events has been recorded on photos and film and by accepting the fact that everything occurred very fast in that timeframe ... that you will finally be able to see the truth about those events.

Anyway, ... the photos are there ... timing and distances are clear enough now after months of discussion and related Official material provided to everybody.

You can use Tarrant, .. than we will associate the PoW official damage report, .. no problems,... it has been Capt Leach to state that those 2 hits were on the same salvo ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:22 pm

In the film there is a overexposure by the bright muzzleflashes in the frames between both still images.
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Re: Hit on POW compass platform

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:45 pm

Hello everybody,

you are absolutely right Thorsten, ... and here they are with 2 pics showing it, ... one after the other to be placed in between the still images above.
PoW_16th_salvo_01.jpg
PoW_16th_salvo_01.jpg (67.59 KiB) Viewed 1682 times
PoW_16th_salvo_02.jpg
PoW_16th_salvo_02.jpg (62.86 KiB) Viewed 1682 times
No doubts HMS Prince of Wales was firing both groups, ... fwd and the aft Y turret, ... while on course 280 degrees immediately after having enlarged to starboard her course to increase her distance to the sinking Hood ... just for few seconds only, ... and having recovered a stable course of 280 degrees to enable her guns to still fire properly.

The Bismarck shell was received in this elapsed time ... the few seconds we see on this film clip, ... together with PoW salvo 16th.

But if anyone still have doubts about it .. about the course 280 and the possibility to fire all groups we are looking at in this film, well we have another evidence here.

Which one ? Very simple, ... it is the PoW Gunnery report itself when it states that 74 were the guns ordered to fire, ... and only 55 shells fired within the first 18 salvoes.

It is enough to know the PoW firing methodology ( I have to thank Duncan - Dunmunro for this one :wink: ).

PoW was firing even or odd guns from each turret at each salvo ( Bismarck A+B or C+D turrets ).

First 8 salvoes were of A+B forward turrets only. So 6 guns in total ( 4+2), each salvo was of 3 guns ordered : 3 x 8 = 24 guns ordered to fire.
From salvo 9 ( A arcs opened at 05.57 ) until salvo 18 with A+B+Y = 10 guns. So each salvo ordered 5 guns to fire : 5 x 10 = 50 guns ordered to fire.

24+50 = 74 guns ordered to fire within the first 18 salvoes in central control, ... than the last 3 salvoes in Local we do not care on this evaluation :wink: .

Please check the number of guns able to be fired on this official document and you will find 74 during the first action of 18 salvoes.

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09guns.htm

The above demonstration tells you that PoW was always in condition to fire ALL turrets from salvo 9 until salvo 18.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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