Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

No, Antonio, I'm sorry, but each new time causes a carriage return line feed after the description. There is almost no exception. I only know about enumeration of multiple times. But even then the description itself ends with the CRLF. 0600 clearly belongs to the weather report and 0601 clearly belongs to the description of the battle. The 20 was most probably written afterwards and it's just a misalignment of the typewriter.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

that is exactly want I meant Marc, ... we are in agreement about it.
The 20 was most probably written afterwards and it's just a misalignment of the typewriter.
I agree with you :ok: .

It was written after and placed between 06.00 and 06.01.

That means it was referred to 06.00, to the time ( minute ) above it, not below, following the KTB top down time logic.

But again, I rate very important the fact that they provided a very clear explanation about how to read the timing.
They wrote aside, into the explanations, that Hood exploded 5 minutes after the German warships opened fire at 05.55.
That remove all error margin since it is enough to sum 05.55 + 5 minutes = 06.00.
The 20 seconds now is even more easy to be associated to the right minute above it.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

That means the weather report is from 0600:20.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

If you like to think that they wanted to underline only a weather situation ... using an input with seconds very rarely to be seen on a German Warship KTB written aside a minute ... so that it was so important for them after to realize the seconds into that minute ... you can assume that ...

.. but since I saw that Hans Henning von Schultz by realizing the re-constructed Bismarck KTB took that statement and associate the seconds incorrectly to the time of Hood explosion description realizing that 06.01 and 20 seconds for the first time, ... than I assume it was NOT for the weather forecast.

My way to read it is that it has been only a transcription error from PG KTB to BS KTB and the 20 seconds refer to Hood explosion detail inside the minute 06.00.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Antonio, it was you who said the 20 belongs to 0600. And 0600 is in alignment with the weather report. The description of the battle is in alignment with 0601.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

and I confirm that, ... and it was you who correctly realized like me that the 20 seconds have been added after.

I only deduced from logic, due to what have been written aside into the explanation ( 5 minutes after opening fire 05.55+5 = 06.00 ) and confirmed into Adm Lutjens radio message ( Hood sunk at 06.00 after 5 minutes engagement ) that the 20 seconds must have been a more precise input added after to correlate more precisely the very important occurrence of Hood explosion written aside.

06.01 was an input for the complete occurrence, explosion and smoke enveloping the warship. The smoke rested into the minute 06.01 for a long time.

That is the only reason I can see for that input in seconds being added after, as you realized to, which cannot be associated to the weather of course, but only to Hood and to define more precisely the Hood explosion time, ... into the minute 06.00 and before the minute 06.01.

This is the way I see it.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Antonio, I only deduce from logic that you can't use the Prinz Eugen war diary to confirm your theory. The war diary clearly states 06:01:20.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Her Nilsson,

Marc, using exactly your same approach, ... you cannot use it either for 06.01 and 20 seconds ... :wink:

So we can all live peacefully using a well defined and well written precise statement from the German side available on 2 official documents : 06.00.

It is enough to use the 05.55 ( open fire by German warships ) plus 5 minutes ( stated both on the PG and BS KTB's and by Adm Lutjens msg ) = 06.00

... we can all live without this seconds discussion ... that in any case in my opinion were a bit overstated by Prinz Eugen compared to Nh 69724 so there will be no change.

Bye Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Herr Nilsson: well I don't know which logic can explain why a 20 seconds put in between 6:00 and 6:01 can refer to 6:01:20. :negative:

The time flows from 6:00 to 6:01. If someone puts 20 in between 6:00 and 6:01 it means 6:00:20 .
If it was 6:01:20, the 20 would have been put after 6:01 or in line with 6:01, not before.

However your and Antonio view are right regarding the fact that 20 was added later when someone realized that such an event needed a more precise timing and asked the person who wrote the KTB to add the 20 after 6:00 and before 6:01. to underline 6:00:20 as the exact timing for this event.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Well, a long time ago I had to fill out saving books with an antiquated typewriter. Sometimes the reasons for such misalignments are very mundane.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Herr Nilsson: :wink:
yes, however just sometimes.

I think the war diary entry was initially written with 6:00 (weather) and 6:01 (hood explosion and sinking). Then, realizing the importance of the event, someone decided to add the 20 to be more precise about the exact timing of Hood explosion (6:00:20) and the 20 was put between 6:00 and 6:01.
If the war diary was already written, as you correctly pointed out, there was no other way to correct the timing to 6:00:20.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

But I think you would admit that Group North can read a war diary in the correct manner.

Image
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

@Herr Nilsson: sure, and you would admit that the Group North can sum up 5:55 with 5 minutes to get to 6:00 and not to 6:01, as stated in the same paragraph of both KTB's.

There is a strong probability that the person who wrote the reconstructed war diary (the one posted above) from the original PG KTB (the one attached by you some posts before), due to an error, copied 20 aside 6:01 interpreting as you are doing now.

IMHO the only logic way to read the PG KTB is that 20 was added between 6:00 and 6:01 to point out the exact second when Hood exploded. Of course the description of Hood sinking is referring to minute 6:01 as well, but who added the 20 wanted to fix the timing at 6:00:20.

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1580
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@Alberto

Yes, but they didn't. The 5 minutes are from a message from Bismarck, not from Prinz Eugen. You're mixing up things. I'm talking about one single entry in the Prinz Eugen war diary. I own the Kriegsmarine instructions for keeping a war diary, you don't, and the way I read it is certainly the correct way. It's not my problem it doesn't fit in Antonio's proposed timeline. He made some great findings, but he tends to weaken all his efforts with producing such flimsy arguments.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Hood's sinking: the timing of that fatal hit

Post by alecsandros »

Herr Nilsson wrote:@Alberto

Yes, but they didn't. The 5 minutes are from a message from Bismarck, not from Prinz Eugen. You're mixing up things. I'm talking about one single entry in the Prinz Eugen war diary. I own the Kriegsmarine instructions for keeping a war diary, you don't, and the way I read it is certainly the correct way. It's not my problem it doesn't fit in Antonio's proposed timeline. He made some great findings, but he tends to weaken all his efforts with producing such flimsy arguments.
Marc,
In the excerpt from PE's log that that you have posted it says "Somit ist Hood 5 minuten nacht Gefechtsbeginn".
Post Reply