you wrote: "Please make up your minds....."
I wrote to Sean: 1) According to Pinchin's Plot, Suffolk, at open fire was 21 sm away from Bismarck and 36 sm from Hood (please take the time to measure on the "Plot")
2) According to Antonio's (much more realistic) reconstruction, Suffolk was at 17 sm from Bismarck and 32 sm from Hood ,after her turn away to north due to the "mirage".
3) According to Antonio's Polygon however, she was at 10 sm from Germans BEFORE her turn to north as this is the timing for the Polygon (between 5:35 and 5:41).
Now you have to decide when the turn to north was done, just before (Ellis official report) or just after the open fire (Ellis autobiography)......
Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,
maybe it is not clear to everybody what Adm G. Lutjens wrote to Germany the same day, so lets put it out once again.
Here it is to be connected with the photo Nh 69722, ... and Jasper gunnery report, ... both fully confirming it.
Until someone finds a more Official and reliable set of evidences /documents, ... those are 2 milestones for the German side timings.
To determine when Bismarck opened fire is enough to know the mathematics, ... and remove 5 minutes from the 06.00.
Consequently Hood explosion : 06.00
Bismarck opening fire : 05.55
Admiral Lutjens statements are clear, ... very clear ...
The issue is absolute versus relative timing.
Gaussian distribution of the 24 above listed inputs :
2 are 05.59 ( Ellis and Wake-Walker : their warships war diary tell 06.00 and 06.02 )
3 are between 05.59 and 06.01 --> we can assume 06.00 average
13 are 06.00
4 are 06.01 (Germans all copied by the same error on BS KTB; should be 06.00 )
1 is 06.02 ( Norfolk war diary; Wake-Walker declared 05.59 )
1 is 06.05 (PoW war diary; all others PoW evidences, witnesses, maps etc … tell 06.00 )
Wadinga wrote: "For Alberto: I have never placed any value on Ellis' vague and muddled recollections from his autobiography.... However, on a day where ......Bismarck's image was lifted by coldwater mirage.....he could clearly see the enemy.
Alberto Virtuani wrote:Wadinga wrote: "For Alberto: I have never placed any value on Ellis' vague and muddled recollections from his autobiography.... However, on a day where ......Bismarck's image was lifted by coldwater mirage.....he could clearly see the enemy.
thanks for your clear answer here. We do need to be direct and open in a fair, productive discussion.
Therefore, whether you trust Pinchin Plot (21 sm from Bismarck and 36 sm from Hood) or Antonio's reconstruction distances after the "circle" away (17 sm from Bismarck, 32 from Hood), you cannot be sure neither 1) that Suffolk was able to spot the VERY first salvo of Hood (thus recording a credible timing) nor to distinguish between the open fire time of the 2 German ships (being almost exactly one behind the other from her position, with no effect of "mirage" being able to split and separate the 2 of them).
Capt.Ellis himself, at the second board, was very skeptical about the reliability of someone on board being able to see any of the 3 hits on Bismarck.....
What's wrong with Polygon of Perfidy? It's a polygon, and you allege perfidy. It's a better description IMHO than "accurate" or "true" or even "better". The map you presented above shows a course between two Suffolk positions of 215 degrees when she steered no further south than 220T. Which of your positions is wrong? Is it both?
is guesswork by PoW's navigator, based on dead reckoning from the last radioed position from hours before for a ship he never saw. The same is true for the positions shown on Norfolk's strategic map, because they were never derived from some unrecorded M/F bearings, but used the same technique.you can call it the RN Admiralty PoW Plan 4 polygon, ... because that is what it is.
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