May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:37 am

@Herr Nilsson:
too shy to post your own map/DoD HERE NOW to allow a poor ignorant to check if it is less "flawed" than Antonio's ? :lol:

Bye; Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Herr Nilsson » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:54 pm

@Antonio
Well, actually I just wanted to show that the strategical map is much too imprecise due to it's scale.


@Alberto

QED...QED...QED...NOW HERE...HERE NOW


My dear Alberto,

do you believe that anyone thinks that this is a productive way to discuss or at least funny?
I don't think Antonio needs a jester. I strongly disagree with him in many aspects, I consider his way of approach biased and his way to discuss unfair, but at least he made maps, he knows what he does and he can explain why. You obviously can't.
But for your amusement I post the DoD for about 0535 for once. (On the assumption that Antonio is right in regard of the other bearings and the 17 seamile distance between PoW and Bismarck is right as well):

Image
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:28 pm

My dear Marc,
as I have already said, I don't need to draw my own map (I can admit I'm unable to do it, not even having a decent drawing tool able to measure angles... :oops: ). However I can evaluate Antonio's tremendous work (reconciling most of the available info and making reasonable assumptions) and I do agree with his conclusions, I have no pleasure in trying to demolish his work without providing an alternative, as you have done until now...... :wink:

I'm happy that finally you have understood that you need to show us your DoD. :clap:
However, I don't think I can accept your disclaimer: "On the assumption that Antonio is right in regard of the other bearings and the 17 seamile distance between PoW and Bismarck is right as well". :negative:

I have asked for YOUR own DoD with YOUR assumptions at 5:41 (or 5:35 if you are more confident with this timing) to compare it with Antonio's one, not for a convoluted hypothesis based on some of Antonio's researches (apparently questioned by you) and with very few others that you have corrected at your own convenience......


In case you really need to use Antonio's assumptions for the left side of the "diamond", instead of presenting YOUR own DoD, then at least have the kindness to please tell us where do you take the 315° bearing Norfolk to Suffolk from and where do you take the 25° bearing PoW to Norfolk from, as well as Antonio, who has specified where he gets his data from and why.... :think:
If you don't, I can propose my own version of the DoD, being more close to some well known available bearings (from PoW Tactical Map and from your above Norfolk Strategical Plot, sorry for the bad graphical tool and guess-calculated bearings).......:

315_zps70ffe11b_2.jpg
315_zps70ffe11b_2.jpg (51.93 KiB) Viewed 261 times

I do think however, that Antonio's assumptions (blue, 18° and 320°) are much more reasonable than our own (red and green) ones.....


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Herr Nilsson » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:13 pm

Alberto,

there is no DoD. Therefore I have none.
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:27 pm

Hi Marc, Q.E.D. :wink:
you have no alternative DoD / map of your own.

Thanks for not answering the question re. your source for 25°and 315°.....

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Herr Nilsson » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:53 pm

:stop: I just said, that there is no DoD and that's why I have none. Draw your own map and you will realize what I mean.

...and have a look at the plot. You will find what you're looking for.
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:41 pm

Marc,
don't play with words please. :stop:
DoD is a nice "abbreviation" to define the relative positions of the 4 ships (considering Hood and Pow together as well as Bismarck and PG, plus Norfolk and Suffolk) with their relative bearings at 5:41.

There is unavoidably a "DoD" that represent the snapshot taken at 5:41 (or 5:35, your choice), because the ships cannot disappear in a map.

The problem is that you are unable (or unwilling) to show YOUR OWN one ...... your problem. :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Cag » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:01 pm

Hi All

I forgot to include the 06.00 Norfolk bearing of 230° to Hood sorry.

It's quite difficult as all these bearings are at different times and so matching them to that time on another track which then also lines up to to further timed bearings takes quite a lot of jiggery pokery whilst keeping the tracks orientated correctly but it's getting there!

But thanks to everyone who gives advice etc I'm sorry it's taking so long I'm afraid life and work get in the way!

Best wishes
Cag.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:08 pm

Hi all,
just to follow Herr Nilsson suggestion, here the (rough, sorry for my limited drawing capabilities) DoD from the Pinchin's "Plot" in violet .....of course it's totally wrong (not respecting the well known bearings) as Antonio has demonstrated already.....

Norfolk and Suffolk Official Plot_DoD.jpg
Norfolk and Suffolk Official Plot_DoD.jpg (123.69 KiB) Viewed 226 times

Please see Antonio's DoD here below for a quick comparison:

Polygon_ref_PoW_Plan_4_01.jpg
Polygon_ref_PoW_Plan_4_01.jpg (61.06 KiB) Viewed 226 times

For the time being of course Antonio's DoD is my reference, but perhaps one day Marc will condescend to show us HIS OWN ONE without riddles and trick questions (even if he pretends that he has no DoD at all..... :kaput:) and then .... who knows ?

I do think, however, that we will see much before Mr.Cag's results and I'm sure they will be very interesting. :clap:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Herr Nilsson » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:08 pm

Alberto,

I'm not playing with words, but thank you for the compliment. I hope that one day my English will be as good as yours.

So what's the D/F bearing of Suffolk from Norfolk at 0536?
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:39 pm

Marc,
I see you still like asking questions without answering......
and BTW my one was not a compliment....IMO playing with words, riddles and trick questions are VERY BAD habits in a serious history forum and you should avoid doing that, but apparently you like this way.....
I wrote: "at least have the kindness to please tell us where do you take the 315° bearing Norfolk to Suffolk from and where do you take the 25° bearing PoW to Norfolk from, as well as Antonio, who has specified where he gets his data from and why...."

Your answer ?

I wrote: "There is unavoidably a "DoD" that represent the snapshot taken at 5:41 (or 5:35, your choice), because the ships cannot disappear in a map. The problem is that you are unable (or unwilling) to show YOUR OWN one"

Your answer ? Should I assume you finally agree there is always a "DoD" ?


My answer: 5:36 bearing NF / SF = still around 320°as at 5:41 (or just slightly less due to their courses and relative positions).
Your bearing at 5:36 ?


Bye; Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Herr Nilsson » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:09 pm

As I said: Have a look at the plot.
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:13 pm

As I said: please answer questions, if you are able...... Riddles will not work anymore :negative:

Bye; Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Herr Nilsson » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:26 am

Alberto,

I've already answered your question 2 times. All good things come in threes:

HAVE A LOOK AT THE PLOT!!!!!

Image

25° is just the missing line to complete a DoD.
Regards

Marc

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:42 am

Hi Marc,
thanks for finally clearly answering my first question (not being as brilliant as you are, I need explicit answers, sorry for that). Now it's clear where you take the 315° from (D/F at 5:36 on Pinchin's Plot drawn on August 41) and how you calculate the 25°.... :think:

Now my second question:
I wrote: "There is unavoidably a "DoD" that represent the snapshot taken at 5:41 (or 5:35, your choice), because the ships cannot disappear in a map. The problem is that you are unable (or unwilling) to show YOUR OWN one....... Your answer ? Should I assume you finally agree there is always a "DoD" ? "


Are you finally able/willing to show us YOUR OWN DoD at 5:35 without using assumptions from Antonio as disclaimer for the left side (explaining YOUR OWN assumptions for German ships relative position to British ships) ?

The only DoD's available here for discussion are Pinchin's and Antonio's one at 5:41 (see my post above), and among the two of them, I would say there is still no match..... :D


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)


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